Periodic report - Advise pls

[lockstock]

Some advice please
I recently became a member of Elecsa and most of my previous electrical work has run in conjunction with kitchen installation, I’m looking to move away from that and concentrate solely on electrical installation.
A client wishes to bring a flat he rents out to the council – up to the standards they have recently stipulated.
The flat is in a block of flats, probably built in the 60’s, the fuse box is in a cupboard designed to house it (and not one I’ve seen before), the fuses are re-wireable and the lighting circuits do Not have an earth. The wiring is of Grey sheath and made up of thin strands (as opposed a single copper core – like todays wire). The wiring is done via metal tube conduit set into the walls. Because the Meter is in this cupboard as well, there isn’t much room (eg to install a new consumer unit).

Meeting the councils approval mainly involves making sure that there are enough socket outlets in each room - (so some socket conversion kits and some spurs , pop in some MCBs) & providing a certificate (Periodical).
Thing is, I’m Not really happy with issuing a periodical cert (this will be my first), not that I don’t know what to do, but because of what I have said, Re: No earth in lights and the wiring being 50 - 60 years old (not done an IR test yet)
The client doesn’t want to have a new consumer unit, nor does he want to pay for re-wire.
Now, am I just being paranoid, or should I tell him I’ll do the work but Wont put my name to it (Cert) ( and I know he doesn’t need to have a cert for rental – but apparently the council want it).

So the advice is, what would you do?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[tigerpaul]

I'd do a periodic inspection, flag up any Remedial work required. Get paid for that first.
Quote for the remedial work. And then Finish the remedials and do the additions and issue the Certs once he's accepted your quote.

If he wants Certs without having faults corrected he'll have to find some other mug

 

[jase]

do the cert list any non conformities, either that or tell him to get someone else to do it, the lighting is fine as long as class 2 equipment used, as long as cable meets all tests would be ok as long as its not VR, is there seperate earths pulled in for the power? or is the conduit being used, also check main bonding

 

[ipf]

If the property is rented by the council, for re-rental, they will insist on the property meeting all necessary criteria. Generally, a PIR is required on change of tenant. With the current state of the installation, if it was a council owned property, I have no doubt that a complete rewire would be insisted upon. Meeting the council's requirements should mean safety before all else. Could be opening a can of worms.

 

[lockstock]

Right.
Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.
@ jase, can’t answer your q’s, as at the time didn’t look that closely, as was only called round to fix a lighting fault.
BTW, what does ‘VR’ mean ?
As this will be my first periodic, I’m (naturally) abit, er, ‘iffy’ ……. Will have to get the OSG out.
Think I’m over complicating it, just wanna do a ‘proper job’…
I quoted £300 to do the cert ( two bed flat) (London) does that seem about right? He’s happy with that, but I’m wondering am I missing something here, as I know he’s had a couple of quotes. (just thought I’d throw that out there to see what you think)
@ Ipf…. This is what I’m worried about, I’ll have to see the documentation from the council to see what it says.
Problem is, the client is a friend of a friend, so I’m inclined to help him out, if I can, but giving this a little more thought, perhaps I should tell him, to get some else to do the periodic.

 

[EastAnglian]

I advise that you make it very clear to your client that you anticipate a number of deficiencies being identified when you carry out the EICR which will result in "unsatisfactory" as the overall assessment of the installation. While you can't say at this stage exactly what the corrective work will entail you should tell him that it may be quite expensive.

You then carry out the EICR to the letter of the law and be very precise in each of the observations about the deficiencies identified.

If your client chooses not to upgrade his installation that's his issue. He will most likely fall foul of the Landlords Act but that isn't your problem.

If its going to get ugly, and he's your mate, then tell him you are too busy.

PS - you will find Guidance Note 3 far more useful than the OSG ..... but I guess you know that from your 2391 training, right?

 

[lockstock]

Actually I've just dug out my guidance notes 3 to have a look.
@EastAnglian, thanks for your advice, and I do like your diplomacy,
I'm now sitting here back peddling on this job !!
Better go to bed !

 

[i=p/u]

cant wait to read gn3 , aint looked at a page and had 2 months... will it make me sweat

 

[EastAnglian]

One you get started you won't want to put it down until the last page :lol:

 

[Engineer54]

Some advice please
I recently became a member of Elecsa and most of my previous electrical work has run in conjunction with kitchen installation, I’m looking to move away from that and concentrate solely on electrical installation.
A client wishes to bring a flat he rents out to the council – up to the standards they have recently stipulated.
The flat is in a block of flats, probably built in the 60’s, the fuse box is in a cupboard designed to house it (and not one I’ve seen before), the fuses are re-wireable and the lighting circuits do Not have an earth. The wiring is of Grey sheath and made up of thin strands (as opposed a single copper core – like todays wire). The wiring is done via metal tube conduit set into the walls. Because the Meter is in this cupboard as well, there isn’t much room (eg to install a new consumer unit).
Meeting the councils approval mainly involves making sure that there are enough socket outlets in each room - (so some socket conversion kits and some spurs , pop in some MCBs) & providing a certificate (Periodical).
Thing is, I’m Not really happy with issuing a periodical cert (this will be my first), not that I don’t know what to do, but because of what I have said, Re: No earth in lights and the wiring being 50 - 60 years old (not done an IR test yet)
The client doesn’t want to have a new consumer unit, nor does he want to pay for re-wire.
Now, am I just being paranoid, or should I tell him I’ll do the work but Wont put my name to it (Cert) ( and I know he doesn’t need to have a cert for rental – but apparently the council want it).

So the advice is, what would you do?

Many thanks in advance.

What your describing here is a typical ex council installation, probably around the late 50's, early 60's...
The wylex 3036 fuses set into it's own compartment at the top of the metal cabinet and the service cut-out and meter taking up the rest of the cabinet...Right??

Both Crabtree and Wylex make various CU skeleton configurations to 17th compliance that will fit into that present fuse box area. So it's not as difficult as it may first seem. The wiring presently installed is imperial T&E which will or should be in pretty good condition. Both lighting and socket cables will actually carry more current than the metric sizes now used, even though the lighting will not carry a CPC.

Not sure if this will be an all conduit system though, it will if the flat has concrete floors and ceilings, if it doesn't you may find the conduit is only used for the drops... Being a flat, the only way to add more sockets is by chasing in horizontally or by installing a dado trunking system. room by room taking the supply from the existing socket outlets.

All depends on how much this guy wants to let this flat out to the council. They tend to pay good rates, but they want everything upto scratch saftey wise, and i'm pretty sure they would want at least a lighting re-wire and a CU change to the present 17th Ed standard!! Might even want any existing appliances PAT tested too!!

Anyway hope that helps you a little!!

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Hi lockstock

Few things

When you do a periodic inspection, you report on what you find. You aren't actually doing any installation work. Therefore its important to understand that you are issuing a report, not a certificate.

As pointed out cable probably imperial. If inspected and in great condition, then report that. Incidentially some new cable has strands (4mm2, for example).

"VR" prob refers to tough rubber sheathed, vulcanised rubber insulation (TRS,VRI). Its in the part P building regs (2006), albeit spelt wrong...they mustve been in a rush to release it 28 million times without a spell check ...!

Again if VRI and tests ok, and inspects ok, and its left alone, it can be left as its still working isn't it? However this is very unlikely as in my experience its always failed big time at fittings or switches.

I suspect it might be an idea to drag someone along and do the PIR (periodic Inspection Report) i mean EICR(!) with them, someone that has bags of experience , 2391, etc as it will only benefit you.

Theoretically there is nothing to stop anyone doing a report, after all its just the opinion of someone at a point in time, but better to do it well......?

S.

 

[Octopus]

I think that you'll find that the council will want to see RCD's on, at the very least, the socket circuits and IMHO as soon as you start changing the socket circuit you'll need to fit them anyway.

As others have said, your friend is probably asking for a PIR (or should I say EICR) and that's what you should be quoting to do...... and from what you've outlined it sounds like the report will be "unsatisfactory".

For what its worth, IMHO, any property being put out to rent should have RCD's on all sockets.

I'd be talking to the client to check what their expectation is!

 

[lockstock]

I’m amazed at you guys!
Not only can someone (Engineer54) describe the job better than I can, but All you guys have weighed –in with sound advice.
I get involved with a couple of forums (nothing to do with electrics) and sometimes you’re sort of scared to ask stuff, because some ‘know it all’ does a condescending trip on you with some ‘Smart answer’ …. But I haven’t felt there here.
No, a more, ‘one of the fellas’ sort of feel…. Which is pretty good !
I really ‘DO’ appreciate it, it can be a ‘pretty lonely’ place out there (as I’m sure you know), when working on your Tod – and being new-ish to sparks.

All in all, I’ve decided to give this job a miss, not that I haven’t taken your advice on board, on the contrary – it’s what has got me to where I am now, And to be honest, I’m glad I have, something didn’t smell right and as has been said ‘Can of Worms’.
It would over run, I’d under price, blar, blar, blar, and I can do without the stress (can’t we all!)

I’ll get a few jobs under my belt first and for the foreseeable future come on here and seek some advice in areas I’m not sure about – Before I open my mouth and shove my foot in it.. D’oh !

Happy New Year Guys

Lockstock

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I’m amazed at you guys!
Not only can someone (Engineer54) describe the job better than I can, but All you guys have weighed –in with sound advice.
I get involved with a couple of forums (nothing to do with electrics) and sometimes you’re sort of scared to ask stuff, because some ‘know it all’ does a condescending trip on you with some ‘Smart answer’ …. But I haven’t felt there here.
No, a more, ‘one of the fellas’ sort of feel…. Which is pretty good !
I really ‘DO’ appreciate it, it can be a ‘pretty lonely’ place out there (as I’m sure you know), when working on your Tod – and being new-ish to sparks.

All in all, I’ve decided to give this job a miss, not that I haven’t taken your advice on board, on the contrary – it’s what has got me to where I am now, And to be honest, I’m glad I have, something didn’t smell right and as has been said ‘Can of Worms’.
It would over run, I’d under price, blar, blar, blar, and I can do without the stress (can’t we all!)

I’ll get a few jobs under my belt first and for the foreseeable future come on here and seek some advice in areas I’m not sure about – Before I open my mouth and shove my foot in it.. D’oh !

Happy New Year Guys

Lockstock

Trust your nose ..... wise words lockstock. Missed a few myself recently for same reason!!

Good Man.

Where you based? (roughly!)

 

[lockstock]

Good I'm glad to see that you agree..

I'm North London.
And Spurs Supporter .... (oh no here we go !!) ....but we're doing Good this season, so far !
Any way, sent the client an email (as I mentioned he's a friend of a friend {but Not my friend -i hasten to add} ) I now just waiting for the *hit to hit the fan !! Duck !!!!