Permanent/Unswitched live colour

[Zdb]

*Emergency Lighting*

I know this has already been discussed recently on a similar thread but I just thought that it might be a good idea to create a poll and see what the general consensus is.

I personally use black as the permanent live and brown as the switched but I recently had a debate with someone who said that the brown should always be permanent like with domestic where the sleeved wire is the switched wire. I completely understand the logic in this but I've always used the black as the perm.

 

[ipf]

I use the brown as permanent but, as long as its sleeved, where's the problem? Not worth the hassle.

 

[Resu]

Depends on the existing install.

If new, brown for permanent live for me, only as I was taught that way. As ipf says though, as long as everything is actually sleeved!

 

[robd]

I would go with brown as PL but neither is wrong by the book so long as black is sleeved. Splitting hairs really but if I went to an existing install and had to start from nothing my money would be on the brown being PL. Wouldn't lose any sleep over it either way

 

[Leesparkykent]

On a new install I would use brown as perm but would follow what’s there on an old install.

 

[casperLennon]

I used to use black but then someone said what colour would you put in the breaker so I now use brown for pl

 

[sam400]

I used to do brown for perm, black for switched.

Then I had connect 100’s of pre flexed Klik roses that are the other way round! So I changed over to there colours,
On the same job we had to install loads of danlers sensors which are different again!

Now I don’t know what I am doing

 

[Zdb]

That's true, although I use black as perm on emergency lighting, I use brown as perm on PIRs. Makes no sense whatsoever

 

[goasis]

Brown for p live, black switched, same in 3 core for timer over run fans, switch drops etc, just they way you're taught I guess!

 

[KEV 1 N]

I was taught to use black as permanent live/keyed live/eme live.
The reason was on 3 pin lighting rock roses, the connections were LNE (brown,blue,green/yellow), so brown is switched live in the 3 core flex for a non-emergency fitting.

A 4pin rock rose (used on EME fittings) the connections would be LNE and AUX or L2, this would be used for the permanent live and would be connected to the black core of the rock flex/plug and brown would be switched (same as brown being switched on a non eme fitting)

Black = permanent live (IMO)

 

[pirate]

Saddo that I am, I label them...cos I love my Brother label printer

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Always black as permenant live, always have.

Only time ive had a issue was second fixing a corridor with about 30 lighta down it, i did 15 one way and the other lad did 15 the other way, our own fault for lack of communication. Re did all mine after losing a rock paper scissors. Could have just crossed over halfway but wanted to keep it consistant for future sparks.

 

[telectrix]

never had this problem before stupid colors. ....red perm L. yellow sw. L, blueN.

 

[Red Tony]

I was too young to have much experience with the old colours but I'm guessing not many sparks would have used the yellow as the perm live?

 

[Dave OCD]

That's another thing, what colour do you use as Common on two -way switching ? In the 'old days' there seemed to be a 50/50 split between those who favoured red and yellow.

 

[Toneyz]

never had this problem before stupid colors. ....red perm L. yellow sw. L, blueN.

100% Tel and you could see which colour was what in a darkened room.

 

[Toneyz]

never had this problem before stupid colors. ....red perm L. yellow sw. L, blueN.

100% Tel and you could see which colour was what in a darkened room.

 

[davesparks]

Brown for permanent live.
Brown for switched live.
Black for key-switched live.

If you use black for the normal switched live then you end up swapping black to brown when you wire the normal lights with a 2 core and earth after the emergency fittings.

 

[telectrix]

Brown for permanent live.
Brown for switched live.
Black for key-switched live.

If you use black for the normal switched live then you end up swapping black to brown when you wire the normal lights with a 2 core and earth after the emergency fittings.

that'sthe reason i started using black for perm.L.

 

[davesparks]

Another way to look at it, the emergency feed is an auxiliary supply to the fitting for battery charging. So you have the main circuit in brown and the auxiliary supply in the extra core.

 

[BeardyJaws]

I personally favour Brown for perm and sleeve the black. Makes more sense to me to sleeve the black as it’s a switch wire. I know others I work with prefer black. End of the day if there’s an existing circuit you use the same system to save confusion.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Due to there being so many different wiring systems, there is no standard method.
Some systems use a perm and a switched feed, some just use a perm feed and switching is controlled by a Dali type ELV circuit.

 

[dinger809]

I’ve always done black as permanent live as that’s what I was shown. Plus, as said previously, Klik roses are black as permanent, brown as switched, so it seems logical to be the same. Can’t bring this up too much though, or there will be a reg about it soon!

 

[cliffed]

I love it..Black always,like you say the klick shows the way.
Then take a 3 core t&e to the switch,for switching emg & light,give that to a apprentice,bang bang..

 

[Red Tony]

Red......yellow.....blue..

Brown.....black.....grey.

Brown/red - perm live.

Black/yellow - switched/em live (tagged near connections with brown tape or sleeving)!

Grey/blue - earth.................



Joking pete999.....

Blue/grey - neutral.



That's how I do it and it seems logical to me.

 

[davesparks]

Red......yellow.....blue..

Brown.....black.....grey.

Brown/red - perm live.

Black/yellow - switched/em live (tagged near connections with brown tape or sleeving)!

Grey/blue - earth.................



Joking pete999.....

Blue/grey - neutral.



That's how I do it and it seems logical to me.

Then you end up with the lights wired in 3 core with yellow switched lives and the lights wired in 2 core having red switched lives. Overall it is easier to follow if all lights have a red switched live and just the few emergency fittings have the yellow auxiliary live.

 

[Red Tony]

Most important thing is to sleeve or tag connections. Worrying seeing so many not so at emergency fittings.

 

[davesparks]

Most important thing is to sleeve or tag connections. Worrying seeing so many not so at emergency fittings.

Why do you think that is the most important thing?

 

[Red Tony]

Coz I've seen them untagged with connections that include both colours old and young and you still get 'diy'ers or 'handymen' trying to replace bulkheads you know. So just like a switched live a black core used as an emergency live should be marked with sleeving to identify a live rather than neutral cable.
Didn't think I'd have to explain that though.

 

[bonjovi]

ive always used black as perm live on em circuits as at the db when I have 200 circuits ready for a big day of terminating the set thats black I instantly know theyre going in the relays and can easily part the bunches so as not to get them mixed up

 

[dinger809]

Klik roses and most pre made lighting systems come as switched brown and unswitched/permanent live is blackZ so that’s what I do

 

[ipf]

Klik roses and most pre made lighting systems come as switched brown and unswitched/permanent live is blackZ so that’s what I do

So Klik decide, then. Fair enough.
Must have spent twenty odd years messing with lighting circuits when the only click involved was knocking the switch on and off.

 

[dinger809]

So Klik decide, then. Fair enough.
Must have spent twenty odd years messing with lighting circuits when the only click involved was knocking the switch on and off.

It keeps it simple on large sites. Any prefabricated wiring systems come the same way. Keeping it the that way throughout, saves confusion

 

[marconi]

Zdb - I don't believe that the poll is unbiased because the % of votes for brown and black are presented throughout the polling and not revealed only at the end of the polling period. Or in other words, seeing the results so far may influence how some folk vote, or the possibility of this influence cannot be discounted. Just saying.

 

[bonjovi]

seeing the results so far may influence how some folk vote, or the possibility of this influence cannot be discounted. Just saying.

agreed as most people sparks not sparks are like sheep and go with the general consenses ,

 

[7029 dave]

That's another thing, what colour do you use as Common on two -way switching ? In the 'old days' there seemed to be a 50/50 split between those who favoured red and yellow.

I was Red. Dave

 

[Zdb]

Klik roses and most pre made lighting systems come as switched brown and unswitched/permanent live is blackZ so that’s what I do

Same as that. There is no right or wrong answer however I've just always used black for the same reason.

 

[Dave OCD]

I was Red. Dave

Me too Dave, and always put the yellow and T&E red in L1 and the blue and black in L2.

 

[7029 dave]

Me too Dave, and always put the yellow and T&E red in L1 and the blue and black in L2.

snap.................words words words errrrrr