Pig feeder system

[Jimmyb]

Hello after abit of advice on adding a automatic start to my granddads pig feeding system,
when I installed it 8 years ago it was wired with a sensor on last feeder so when it was full it turned off and need start button pressing on the night.
has any one put a auto start system in ? do I need to add a magic eye on one of the feeder pipe if so wots the best way of wiring it now.

any suggestions or advise would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks

 

[t-s]

So your giving this advice to the OP without any detailed knowledge of his particular set-up!... what works for one system can be highly dangerous for another hence the cautious advice I gave him, out of interest what experience of control systems and the Low Voltage directive and other associated regulations that may limit your options on such a request do you have... I only ask because of the possible dangerous advice you give... PS if the start button would over-ride the paddle then the control system is incorrectly wired be it by adaption by others or manufacturing issues, stop commands should hold priority on start commands so if you had a Stop command active the Start option wouldn't work until the stop command was cleared... if you are altering any controls that are found to do this (Unless by special design) then you are required to rectify the issue as part of your alteration, addition etc...

I have a lot of experience in this area, I am only giving advice based on the info I have. I'm not sure why you are attacking me for other people's mistakes that I have rectified??? All I said was I have seen on numerous occasions people connect a start button in parallel WRONGLY!!!! with a limit or a stop. I have been building panels and attending breakdowns on all kinds of machinery for years for the likes of DuPont and Glaxo so I think I know how start and stops work..... But if wer speaking strictly maybe if the op has to ask he is not competent to carry out such a job. He asked how to make his system work automatically and I told him. What I said would make it run constant unless stopped by the flap switch. I have wired many livestock feeders in this way, in order for someone to sustain an injury they would have to remove an inspection panel and stick their hands in (ignoring the warning sign saying auger starts automatically blah blah) anyone who does not know to isolate for mechanical maintenance is not competent. Correct me if I'm wrong

ps. No offence to the op I realise you only wanted a simple answer which is what I thought I had given previously

 

[TJ Anderson]

I have a lot of experience in this area, I am only giving advice based on the info I have. I'm not sure why you are attacking me for other people's mistakes that I have rectified??? All I said was I have seen on numerous occasions people connect a start button in parallel WRONGLY!!!! with a limit or a stop. I have been building panels and attending breakdowns on all kinds of machinery for years for the likes of DuPont and Glaxo so I think I know how start and stops work..... But if wer speaking strictly maybe if the op has to ask he is not competent to carry out such a job. He asked how to make his system work automatically and I told him. What I said would make it run constant unless stopped by the flap switch. I have wired many livestock feeders in this way, in order for someone to sustain an injury they would have to remove an inspection panel and stick their hands in (ignoring the warning sign saying auger starts automatically blah blah) anyone who does not know to isolate for mechanical maintenance is not competent. Correct me if I'm wrong

ps. No offence to the op I realise you only wanted a simple answer which is what I thought I had given previously

tut, you know you should have performed a full free onsite visual inspection before offering advice to someone on here lol

 

[t-s]

tut, you know you should have performed a full free onsite visual inspection before offering advice to someone on here lol

I have my legal team on the case writing up contracts and liability waivers. I am on sorting a risk assessment and permit to work then I will photocopy my qualifications and gather references

 

[t-s]

Bet you wish you'd never asked Jimmy haha

 

[TJ Anderson]

I have my legal team on the case writing up contracts and liability waivers. I am on sorting a risk assessment and permit to work then I will photocopy my qualifications and gather references

That should do for a start, Mods will then do police background and family checks followed by a gunpoint interrogation of BS7671. You should then be "good to go" on advising how to wire a shed and go on from there basically.

 

[Darkwood]

Im not attacking you par' ce ... it was just you offered advice without mentioning possible limitations on doing what the OP requests.

If the Hopper is meshed out at the base and access to any moving parts is not possible without using drivers, spanners etc then automating this unit shouldn't be an issue, if any panel is designed for inspection and access for say a blockage and is expected to be accessed on occasion then the controls will need to be upgraded to incorporate some form of limit switch through a safety relay set-up if not already incorporated, to ensure it cannot auto-start while been unblocked, this task of clearing blockages could be performed by an unskilled person so regardless of signs and lock offs it is still required.

This is all I meant - yes give a possible solution by all means but ensure you remind the OP your solution can only be used if his feeder is as above or has similar measures if required.

'( in order for someone to sustain an injury they would have to remove an inspection panel and stick their hands in (ignoring the warning sign saying auger starts automatically blah blah) anyone who does not know to isolate for mechanical maintenance is not competent. Correct me if I'm wrong)'

This is not strictly true hence I said a risk assessment is essential which will include the likely knowledge level of operators, the likelyhood of inspection panel been opened etc ....(Note the name 'Inspection panel', so assume its likely if for blokages)

So autostart as simple as it is to incorporate may require extra safety measures to comply and be safe.

As long as the OP is given this advice along with the possible solution then (s)he has all the info required to make an informed decision on what to do.... you even expressed the OP isn't probably competent by asking the question yet you didn't give the safety aspect of your advice...

Please don't take offense it was just a query as to your background and not trying to trip you up in anyway... not really seen your posts often and tend to know the regular set on here who are into panel building.

 

[t-s]

Im not attacking you par' ce ... it was just you offered advice without mentioning possible limitations on doing what the OP requests.

If the Hopper is meshed out at the base and access to any moving parts is not possible without using drivers, spanners etc then automating this unit shouldn't be an issue, if any panel is designed for inspection and access for say a blockage and is expected to be accessed on occasion then the controls will need to be upgraded to incorporate some form of limit switch through a safety relay set-up if not already incorporated, to ensure it cannot auto-start while been unblocked, this task of clearing blockages could be performed by an unskilled person so regardless of signs and lock offs it is still required.

This is all I meant - yes give a possible solution by all means but ensure you remind the OP your solution can only be used if his feeder is as above or has similar measures if required.

'( in order for someone to sustain an injury they would have to remove an inspection panel and stick their hands in (ignoring the warning sign saying auger starts automatically blah blah) anyone who does not know to isolate for mechanical maintenance is not competent. Correct me if I'm wrong)'

This is not strictly true hence I said a risk assessment is essential which will include the likely knowledge level of operators, the likelyhood of inspection panel been opened etc ....(Note the name 'Inspection panel', so assume its likely if for blokages)

So autostart as simple as it is to incorporate may require extra safety measures to comply and be safe.

As long as the OP is given this advice along with the possible solution then (s)he has all the info required to make an informed decision on what to do.... you even expressed the OP isn't probably competent by asking the question yet you didn't give the safety aspect of your advice...

Please don't take offense it was just a query as to your background and not trying to trip you up in anyway... not really seen your posts often and tend to know the regular set on here who are into panel building.

Ok mate no hard feelings haha I know my way around feedlines I used to do atleast 1 callout a week on them with my old firm.

 

[Darkwood]

The problem about advising on control systems is this is a forum full of sparkies with little or no knowledge of regulations and safety issues associated with such set-up... so if they ask a question about a machine control system it would be advisable to relay any safety aspects and risks that come with delving into such areas.... had they asked a domestic question and they were qualified then you assume their competence and don't have to reind them electricity kills in every post as a disclaimer...

As I said before, I've seen what happens when Electricians get involved in the Electrical Engineering game and Ive seen people been injured and know of deaths as a result so mock my cautionary attitude (I have tough skin )but they are not asking how to change a lightswitch here!

 

[PEG]

This is the type of setup normally with no accessible parts to the augers moving parts

Having been involved in agricultural engineering for most of my life,i am sitting out this one,for reasons alluded to by others...i just wanted to say that THIS^ picture of a pig,is one of the best i've ever seen,and i wish the OP well,if only for the little smile it possesses. :icon12:

 

[Knobhead]

just link out the N/O contact or the start button and make sure you have an isolator fitted and a sticker saying something along the lines of "warning auger may start without warning". this is assuming that you have it wired correctly as it is and your start button doesn't bypass the flap switch.

One of the reasons I dropped out of this thread is I knew the dangerous suggestions that would follow.

Inspection ports are a nightmare unless they are physically screened (IE mesh) or interlocked to stop the drive.

“Just short out the start button” is one of the most stupid and dangerous bits of advice I’ve ever come across on this forum. No consideration to the need for E-Stops delatching or anything else for that matter.

 

[t-s]

It will be bolted down. Systems come pre wired to run constant unless isolator is switched off so I really don't see the issue. You would wire a fan to a thermostat that is only protected by a guard with 4 bolts and no interlock. does the bonnet in your car have an interlock switch, if you start your engine stick your hand in and loose a finger who's fault is that. If you take 2 screws out of a db cover remove the bus bar cover you can touch live parts shall we fit a ****ing interlock to them too?????

 

[TJ Anderson]

It will be bolted down. Systems come pre wired to run constant unless isolator is switched off so I really don't see the issue. You would wire a fan to a thermostat that is only protected by a guard with 4 bolts and no interlock. does the bonnet in your car have an interlock switch, if you start your engine stick your hand in and loose a finger who's fault is that. If you take 2 screws out of a db cover remove the bus bar cover you can touch live parts shall we fit a ****ing interlock to them too?????

If you read all the posts on here regarding industrial situations it would appear that everyone working within a mile of the place is attempting to commit suicide via electricity and it is the industrial electricians jobs to prevent it with locks and signs lol. It quite amazing they even make it in to work without sticking their head under a car wheel!!

 

[t-s]

If you read all the posts on here regarding industrial situations it would appear that everyone working within a mile of the place is attempting to commit suicide via electricity and it is the industrial electricians jobs to prevent it with locks and signs lol.

Exactly these are the rules put in place by factories not by hse pig feeders are manufactured and sold in this way so clearly it complies with current standards

 

[Darkwood]

There are 2 EU directives you need to know here -

- 1 The Machinery Directive
- 2 The Use of Work Equipment by Workers at Work Directive

These directives are directly related to the Essential Health and Safety Requirements (EHSR's) from the machinery directive and can be used to conform the safety of equipment in the Use of Work Equipment Directive.

Reading your responses to the issues we raised its becoming clear you really have no clue as to your requirements and probably don't realise how to do a risk assessment and design, alter or extend a system to conform to it.

The OP set-up is a manual start and no mention to it ever been supplied as an auto option, of cause some feeders may be sold with this option but to be CE compliant it would have to comply with the above - if any one alters, makes additions or designs the control system of any machinery then they must do so having a full knowledge of the above as well as the LV Directive of which the BS 60204 will probably play a big role...

Mock it and drop silly comments all you want but all this does is show your incompetence in this field, its not just about understanding how to achieve the desired control system, to be fully competent you need to know the weight of responsibilty you place on your shoulders. By doing any additions or alterations to any machinery exempts the manufacturers of liability and places it on you shoulders - any future accident that comes to the attention of H&S will see you answering some very tough questions, I've been there a few times and shown I took all the necessary steps to conform to regulations and met the required risk cat' placed on the machine....(It was the operators by-passing safety measures that was the issue on both cases), like I said before; this may be a simple case of the machines design allows for auto set-up with minor alterations and still meets its safety cat' but it must be mentioned and made clear that it may breach the required directives by making alterations without ensuring the machinery still complies.

t-s a pig feeder is a machine it has no bearing if its in a factory or a field it still has to meet all the EU regulations and directives, these strict measures are put in place because people get killed and seriously injured daily and mainly through mis-use, over-riding safety systems and lack of understanding to the dangers, we have to build machinery and controls to be idiot proof because these are the people that tend to run them on minimum wage.

I had a similar set-up where they had been quoted £120 to have an auto feature with a timer, I quoted over £700 and explained why to the company director, he went with my quote and informed the other guy he lost the job because he didn't do a risk assessment and bring it into line to comply with an auto start option...

 

[Knobhead]

t-s I’ve fitted many automatic feeder systems, mainly for chemicals. The principal is still the same be it pig nuts or chemicals.

Your total lack of knowledge is staggering! Ignorance of the law is no excuse.



As for Mr Anderson backing you up, I’ll hold my peace. I could speak my piece but I won’t.