Plant machinery

[newcastle phill]

Hi all.
First post here and a serious question regarding electrical testing after work.

In particular testing machinery in a factory after work.

A friend works in a factory where they have a few 440v machines.
The maintenance bloke there has no electrical qualifications and a few times the machines have required repairing after breakdown.

Sometimes mechanical and often electrical.
He is clueless and for example has had the 440v cabinet on the back of the machine open with the dead mans isolating handle twisted back on with a pair of mole grips and the door propped open while he hits the relays with a piece of wood. So the machines energised and live with the huge 5 foot cabinet open. Working live

Also after swapping motors out and making wiring good to suit he just switches it all back on and if it works - then its safe as far as hes concerned.

So...

What electrical tests should he be carrying out after work.
As it is in a factory hsaw, puwer, eawr all apply.
And what meter should he be using if any.
I.e a mega etc.

Or is he totally exemt from testing as its a bespoke plant machine

Thanks in advance. Please no guessing as there is a process of an hse complaint going in and need some factual advice from experienced personell with a similar responsibility

 

[Marvo]

I don't know where to start. The picture you paint is like a throwback to 30 years ago where factory maintenance guys were a law unto themselves. Nowadays if .....or when, something goes wrong then people will be going to jail.

IMHO the least of your worries is what test equipment he should have, I'd suggest a complete review of practices and procedures from the ground up would be a place to start. This needs to be driven by management, not the maintenance guys.

 

[Darkwood]

By the sounds of it he shouldn't be even near the machines ...if anyone is injured or killed by any of those machines he may be facing a long stint inside... if you make any upgrades, alterations or changes to any machinery you take on full responsibility for the safety of anyone and everyone that operates or even walks past the machine.... I see this all the time and I have also seen and heard of people who are not so lucky when things go wrong.

 

[newcastle phill]

Absolutely he should be nowhere near.

The management are very bad.
It is a global company with a small arms length division and the management are inbred if that makes sense.
No outsiders, over the years apparently as jobs have come up thier mates from within have got them, all a clique with no skills base.

So regarding test equipment
As its 440v a 1000v mega ??
test machine as a whole or individual circuits worked on ??

 

[Darkwood]

Sorry you lost me here your test equipment is for the electrical installation of the building as a qualified Electrician (assuming here)
, machinery or anything attached to the installation will need specialist knowledge of the said machine for a routine test sequence/procedure.. this is all subject to circumstance and where one machine may have a IR test to certain parts of it, the same test could damage the next machine.

You cannot implement a global test routine for all machinery as its subject to the design and build of the machine, this is way beyond the scope of an Electrician and falls under Electrical Engineering/Panel control etc ....

A full working knowledge of the Low Voltage Directive, as well as the BS 60204 coupled with a indepth knowledge of risk assessment is needed before any test equipment is even considered.

Let these cowboys do whatever the want but stay clear of their work, anything you do to these machine drops the reponsibilty on you shoulders be it testing or other works, the fact you ask the question shows you may be creeping into areas you need to stay well clear off but dont get me wrong as thats what we are here for ...to give good advice

 

[snowhead]

He is clueless and for example has had the 440v cabinet on the back of the machine open with the dead mans isolating handle twisted back on with a pair of mole grips and the door propped open while he hits the relays with a piece of wood. So the machines energised and live with the huge 5 foot cabinet open. Working live

Have these concerns been raised with the local Management or the parent company?
Involving the HSE could easily cause the Global company to close this division down, resulting in everyone losing their jobs.

To anyone who has never worked on machinery, the above sounds unbelievable, but the basics of what he is doing is common and in some cases the only way to test and or fault find.

However the important part is what measures does he put in place to protect others and to protect himself from others.?

Does he have exclusive control of the machine whilst working on it.?
Are all the connections within the cabinet shielded? as required for modern cabinets, if so Live working is not taking place.
Is the area around the open cabinet secure or enclosed with barriers to protect others and to protect others from interfering whilst he is working on the machine?

I assume the machines have interlocked guards on rotating parts to protect the operators or to protect others whilst the machine is under repair?
Is the cabinet switched off when he is not in front of it?

Operating relays and contactors by hand (screwdriver, wood or whatever) would not normally expose anyone to live connections.

 

[newcastle phill]

Sorry you lost me here your test equipment is for the electrical installation of the building as a qualified Electrician (assuming here)
, machinery or anything attached to the installation will need specialist knowledge of the said machine for a routine test sequence/procedure.. this is all subject to circumstance and where one machine may have a IR test to certain parts of it, the same test could damage the next machine.

You cannot implement a global test routine for all machinery as its subject to the design and build of the machine, this is way beyond the scope of an Electrician and falls under Electrical Engineering/Panel control etc ....

A full working knowledge of the Low Voltage Directive, as well as the BS 60204 coupled with a indepth knowledge of risk assessment is needed before any test equipment is even considered.

Let these cowboys do whatever the want but stay clear of their work, anything you do to these machine drops the reponsibilty on you shoulders be it testing or other works, the fact you ask the question shows you may be creeping into areas you need to stay well clear off but dont get me wrong as thats what we are here for ...to give good advice

I take your point very well regarding it being a bespoke machine.
But surely to work must require basic recognised electrical quals ??
Or is a voltmeter sufficient.
And indeed it is fixed into the installation.

 

[Darkwood]

I take your point very well regarding it being a bespoke machine.
But surely to work must require basic recognised electrical quals ??
Or is a voltmeter sufficient.
And indeed it is fixed into the installation.

The machine is only attached to the installation and thus is not covered under the BS 7671, there are many standards and qualifications which can allow you to work on specified machinery as some can be specialist with Engineers been sent out from the manufacturers, these will have gone through an inside training and evaluation course by the manufacturer although they may have additional qualifications like HNC in Electrical and/or Mechanical Engineering or even be a fully fledge Electrician..

I work with machinery control systems alot from repair to design, overhaul etc etc from your opening post this said maintenance should not be near any of this machinery regardless of what test equipment he has.

I focus on a selection of machines and the equipment I use to test are varied -

IR tester
Multimeter
Laptop - for plc diagnostics, alterations etc
Tachometer
Data-logger with various plug ins from current clamps to temp' sensors
Clamp meter AC/DC

Just to name a few, I also have boxes of devices that can be coupled together to generate specific signals be it 0-10v or a pulse train to diagnose suspected faulty devices...

When we say machine then the scope and range that word covers can mean anything from a simple device with a basic operating set-up to a complex computer aided million pound + Smart lathe.

To answer your question about qualifications then Competence is the main key here and if anything ever goes wrong which it does and not always through error then its about proving in a court of law that you are in deed competent and with a lack of credible diploma's, certificates then you are already on a uphill struggle to clear your name.

 

[newcastle phill]

Ill pass it on.
As I said this person is seemingly just a part swapper and keeps changing bits til it works.
From the sounds of it he has no gear to do earth tests or insulation tests.
But i have no idea if he is required to do so.
I would have thought he would tho.

Thanks

 

[Darkwood]

The industry is full of part swappers... basically clueless wannabe's who pretend they are the bees knees yet end up winging it, these types IMHO are very dangerous people both to the safety of themselves, operatives and anyone else that may be around the machines, pushing contacts in to see if things work is a dangerous game in deed unless you have a full working knowledge of the machine and it wiring system, doing a contactor manually can over-ride any of the safety and control functions of the machine and can be a safety hazard if not cause a lot of damage to the machine itself... I recently had to go to such a situe' where the so called Electrician had maually depressed a contactor to try see if a motor worked.. well it did but forced the tool stock past the end safety limits and crashed into energy track and wiring looms, all this has cost thousands to repair and he's trying to say the machine was faulty thats why it happened - unlucky for him the operator of the machine saw him manually push it in and send the tool stock past its normal stopping points.

It all comes down to the fact that if you in anyway modify, alter or make additions to any machinery then you take the responsibility of the whole machine and it safety upon your shoulders as a risk assessment must be done before you do any of the above and this can mean you have to bring the machinery and its controls into the modern standards... so even extending the E-stop circuit to add another button which can be a simple task in most cases means you have had to assess the machine in its entirety and ensure that your addition meets current regulations which of course means the rest of the safety system would also have to be updated if this was not the case.


To note here that some of these so called specialists that the manufacturers send out are glorified part swappers too, they have a diagnostic list and a box of spares with little actual key knowledge of how the equipment works from an electrical control point of view.

 

[Besoeker]

Newcastle Phill

Your friend sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I hope it doesn't.

I've been designing, supplying, installing and commissioning electrical equipment in industrial sites for decades.
In most cases you can't get beyond security without a site safety passport*, sit through a site induction, and take a test on it.
Then you need to present a risk assessment and method statement and get those approved before you can work on anything.

Sounds like your pal has done none of that.
Marvo is right. Your mate should seriously heed his advice.Throwback? I think Marvo is right about that too. It hasn't been 440V in this country for a very long time. It was 415V but it is now 400V.

 

[newcastle phill]

Hes not a friend. A friend of mine work there where hes relayed this to me. Iv just passed it on and some may have been lost in translation

 

[Darkwood]

Easier to direct him to the website, you don't have to be a member to view this thread as its in the public area, its alot to explain if your trying to explain all the replies

 

[PEG]

Hi dude,although a bit late to the party...

In the situation you describe,it sounds like the selection of appropriate test equipment,is secondary to the omitted training...

I also see these situations,in established,large,mainly privately run manufacturing/processing operations.

The reasons these situations exist,are many...it may be just down to habit,who knows who,length of duration of a situation,also has a bearing,as if they have escaped any incident,a comfortable yet factless trust is built upon that ongoing method.

It can sometimes be perpetuated due to that other business incentive...cost...

I have lost count of the number of occasions,i have entered a premises for the first time,and winced,as i watched operatives carrying out an obviously potentially fatal operation....then discovered ,"this is the way we have always done it..." with luck being the main factor...

The advice given above,is sound,and holds true.

 

[rapparee]

To be honest i don't think there is anything wrong with working on a live panel whilst fault finding. I've done it many times, i have also swapped parts (pcb boards sensors etc) to see if they are faulty. If you know what you are doing and are competent what is wrong with it.