Portable Appliances Fitted With IEC 60309 "Commando Plugs"

[enlighting]

Afternoon all,

I require some wisdom from the fountain of knowledge that is electricians forums.

Last week I was carrying out portable appliance testing in an a factory that I carry out alot of work in, The factory floor has been wired with IEC 60309 sockets throughout, all fine so far. However I have noticed that certain appliances have had there standard fused plug tops removed and replaced with IEC 60309 plugs (Commando) as there were no standard socket outlets located nearby.

This surely is unacceptbale as these appliances require fuse protection, the MCB protectiong the IEC 60309 sockets is likely rated at 20A.

For example one item I came across was a soldering iron, the cable from the soldering iron to the IEC 60309 plug was 0.75mm! The appliance does have an internal fuse but this does not cover the flex feeding it. ???

Does anyone know of any IEC 60309 plugs available with built in fuse protection or am I just going to have to use adaptors.

Any help is Apretiated

Cheers

Dave

 

[Brightspark2]

IMO these need fusing down to protect the cable...

On fixed installations over current protection can be placed within 3m of the change of CSA or even ommitted when certain requirements are met but this doesnt fall within them...

 

[telectrix]

what he said ^^^^^

 

[Engineer54]

Now i wonder what they do in all the other European countries, that don't have fused plug tops??? lol!!

 

[enlighting]

cheers Gents I thought so, but my question is how do I do this in the most efficient way, I cannot install standard socket outlets as this would cost far to much for the customer!

I have seen IEC 60309 adaptors that take standard plug tops, but this doesent seem an ideal soloution.

Perhaps its just me but I wouldve thought that surely someone has created a IEC 60309 compliant plug that incorporates fuse protection?

 

[Brightspark2]

Lower the rating of MCB?...

 

[enlighting]

I Could lower the rating of the MCB, However I suspect the Circuit will be carrying a fair bit of load judging by the number of outlets in use

 

[44ALLAN]

I'm assuming you have 3 pin blue @230v?
These will be protected by 16amp in your board.
If you can't reduce the size of the breaker then make up a small extension lead with 3 pin commando plug on one side and a normal 13amp socket adaptor on the other.
You can then fuse down the plug top to be able to use the appliances that have cables with ccc less than the 16 amp.
Not ideal but only other way is to change the outlets for fused ones.

 

[enlighting]

Yeah blue 230V, I think il pop in today with the ammeter and see if i can drop the MCB down to 10A mayb even fit an RCBO for addittional protection, the soloution im seeking needs to be applied throughout the factory floor as this isnt a unique case within the installation.

 

[Engineer54]

Yeah blue 230V, I think il pop in today with the ammeter and see if i can drop the MCB down to 10A mayb even fit an RCBO for addittional protection, the soloution im seeking needs to be applied throughout the factory floor as this isnt a unique case within the installation.

Your applying domestic mentality to an industrial installation!! If these machines and equipment require HRC fuse protection then they will be provided within the machines etc!! Providing the the leads are of a suitable size from the plug-top to the machine then there is no problem whatsoever with them being fitted with industrial type un-fused plug-tops!! Exactly the same situation can also be said to apply in just about every European country as well as in the States, on all domestic / commercial / industrial installations!! Which was the point i was raising in post #4 of this thread!! ...lol!!

If your PAT tester doesn't have the correct socket, then make-up a conversion lead, ....not rocket science is it!!

 

[grantr37]

There's commando trailing sockets and commando wall socket boxes with RCBO inserts, from 3A to 32A available depending on the size of the plug and the appliance , problem is that they are about £170 each........MK make them as do Gewiss and a few others....think Menekkes do them as well....

 

[grantr37]

that fuse inside the soldering iron is a 350c Thermal fuse....no protection at all...same as the kind in hair straighteners(180c)....

 

[enlighting]

Engineer54

I disagree I am not applying domestic mentality to an industrial installation.

There are certain items in use on the factory floor that do require attention. Of course it is fine for industrial machines to be fitted with industrial plugs.

However the items I am concerned about are the likes of 4 way 3pin extension leads and soldering irons that have been altered as no standard outlets are available and in some cases with 0.75mm flex feeding them. No not rocket science but a reasnoble question yes. Your reference to other european countries and the US is irrelevant to me as I work to british standards and british ones only.

All I am seeking is reasoned advice and the opinions of fellow electricians about a small issue I have noticed in my place of work.

 

[Engineer54]

Engineer54

I disagree I am not applying domestic mentality to an industrial installation.

There are certain items in use on the factory floor that do require attention. Of course it is fine for industrial machines to be fitted with industrial plugs.

However the items I am concerned about are the likes of 4 way 3pin extension leads and soldering irons that have been altered as no standard outlets are available and in some cases with 0.75mm flex feeding them. No not rocket science but a reasnoble question yes. Your reference to other european countries and the US is irrelevant to me as I work to british standards and british ones only.

All I am seeking is reasoned advice and the opinions of fellow electricians about a small issue I have noticed in my place of work.

You are, otherwise you would know the differences between domestic and industrial installations!!

Extension leads in an industrial shop floor environment is to my mind a complete no,no. And anything that is altered or modified, as to be rendered as now being none standard, needs careful assessment!! Who by the way is taking responsibility for making these alterations to BS/CE/EN certified equipment/tools etc, ....You??

It's only irrelevant to you, because you don't really understand the relevance, or what your doing!! The installation you have been describing, is perfectly normal and to ''British Standards'' too for industrial shop floors. Apart from running extension leads all over the place that is!!...

 

[enlighting]

Exactly, I am fully aware of the difference and I do not appreciate you saying I don’t understand the relevance. This is an industrial installation however extension leads are being used (quite frequently) to add equipment to the production. So I am assessing what requires changing and what does not.

Perhaps if I explain in more detail the installation we are discussing it will clear things up. It is an electronics factory producing PCB's and various other things. So at any one place on the line you can expect to come across large three phase machinery in addition to standard 230v appliances like PC's Monitors and test equipment.

The problem has been caused when the line has expanded outside of its original design requirements, instead of installing additional outlet correctly rated for the appliances to be used extensions have been added to allow the extra appliances to be connected.

You have made assumptions about myself and the job which are incorrect, however I do realise you are working from limited information so perhaps this explains why.

Just so you are aware I am fully qualified industrial electrician who carries out installation work regularly not just a fool with a P.A.T tester.

"And anything that is altered or modified, as to be rendered as now being none standard, needs careful assessment!!"

That is exactly what I am trying to discuss with this thread.

 

[Brightspark2]

I disagree E54...I dont think this is normal or too British standards...

How does a 4 way adaptor with a 16A plug on a 20A breaker comply with British standards?...

You mention the un-fused plug tops in the EU but doesnt the OPD at the origin provide the over current protection?...

Lower the rating of the MCB and this would be similar to an EU setup...

 

[Engineer54]

Exactly, I am fully aware of the difference and I do not appreciate you saying I don’t understand the relevance. This is an industrial installation however extension leads are being used (quite frequently) to add equipment to the production. So I am assessing what requires changing and what does not.

Perhaps if I explain in more detail the installation we are discussing it will clear things up. It is an electronics factory producing PCB's and various other things. So at any one place on the line you can expect to come across large three phase machinery in addition to standard 230v appliances like PC's Monitors and test equipment.

The problem has been caused when the line has expanded outside of its original design requirements, instead of installing additional outlet correctly rated for the appliances to be used extensions have been added to allow the extra appliances to be connected.

You have made assumptions about myself and the job which are incorrect, however I do realise you are working from limited information so perhaps this explains why.

Just so you are aware I am fully qualified industrial electrician who carries out installation work regularly not just a fool with a P.A.T tester.

"And anything that is altered or modified, as to be rendered as now being none standard, needs careful assessment!!"

That is exactly what I am trying to discuss with this thread.

Good, at least we now know your not a so-called DI trying to ply his limited knowledge to industrial installations/situations!! Thanks for clearing that one up for us, sometimes it's difficult to assess!! lol!!

Basically you have answered your own thinking here. If the company has extended production lines without making provisions for those additional electrical line requirements, then this is where you start. We both know that extension leads used on production lines are not acceptable, and should be replaced with suitably fixed outlets where the new equipment has been installed.

As far as tools or equipment being altered/modified and i don't just mean change of plug-top, (remember that the same equipment will available in many western countries where unfused plug tops are the norm) then it's a case of who is taking the responsibility for those modifications, the company or the person that has modified them!!"

 

[Engineer54]

I disagree E54...I dont think this is normal or too British standards...

How does a 4 way adaptor with a 16A plug on a 20A breaker comply with British standards?...

You mention the un-fused plug tops in the EU but doesnt the OPD at the origin provide the over current protection?...

Lower the rating of the MCB and this would be similar to an EU setup...

I think i've already stated that extension leads are not acceptable!! lol!! I am referring to the unfused 16A socket outlets, as opposed to 13A outlets in industrial installations. 16A /20A OCPD are completely acceptable, depending on the circuit make-up etc, without the need of any RCD protection, which can spell disaster on a production line.

 

[enlighting]

Glad were on the same page now gents

The use of extensions with 60309 plugs for low load 230v appliances and the use of low load appliances with the same plugs is the problem here and one that will have to be ressolved. Im going to speak to the client tommorow and come up a plan to modify the offending itmes on the lines one at a time to a more suitable setup.

 

[cobrauk]

I am very old 63 today lol but i seem to remember years ago having 16amp 3 pin round plug that had a fuse as a live pin or am i getting old ?

 

[Engineer54]

I am very old 63 today lol but i seem to remember years ago having 16amp 3 pin round plug that had a fuse as a live pin or am i getting old ?

Yes and no, ...Yes there was a round pin plug top that used a screw-in fuse as the live pin, but it was 13A not 16A. Made by D&S and was used in most council housing estate projects after the war until the late 50's... They were made to fit standard BESA boxes rather than purpose made back boxes. The same went for the light switch made by D&S. The standard 13A plug top we know today, very quickly gained favour over that and other early 13A plug top designs!!