Project manager fair rates?

[wattsup]

I've been asked to project manage a large'ish installation in North Derbyshire (arround 90K)
The installation will be carried out by others.

The owners of the building have asked I keep an eye on the works as it progresses, extras costs, exact locations of equipment standard of work etc. The owners of the building have no electrical knowledge at all and are concerned with escalating costs as work proceeds (I know there will be many extras which cannot be priced before hand.

I am familiar with the building and have done loads of maintenance over the years. (in fact I told them it wanted rewiring 10 years ago!...anyhow they have finally realised.

I would expect to be on site for 1 or 2 hours a day....how much would a reasonable fee be?
An unusual job for me, I've only ever ran jobs for companies and not the clients watch-dog.
The duration of the contract will be 12-weeks, 2/3 electricians and 1 labourer.

 

[malcolmsanford]

It;s not really project management as such unless your going to set phase reviews, deliverables etc etc, seems more like either consultancy or a glorified clerk of works.

I think you have to set some guidelines here as you could soon see cost spiraling. Isn't there a set of plans/drawings showing equipment/accessory location to work from you can not run any decent size project with just "chalk marks" on a wall.

How will you deal and document the extras and to be honest a project should not be run or even executed with a majority of extras, all works should have had risk logs done and put into place.

What happens if on the 1-2 hours that you are not there, the contractor needs to isolate an area and this area can not be isolated, what happens if the design run needs to be altered, do they wait for you to come and down tools until you do, which then becomes part of these extra's, your clients and you will soon see exactly what they don't want escalation of costs.

Does the contractor know your role in the contract, have you had any pre-site meetings, who is going to deal with the health and safety aspects of the project and to be honest who will have the final say in any project alterations you or the company.

There is a lot to make sure you iron out first before taking up this role, you near clear defined guidelines, project objectives and project goals, if the project falls behind who will carry the can ?

 

[Engineer54]

As Malcolm has quite clearly and accurately pointed out, the responsibilities of a project manager, is why they are on the big bucks. The work your describing cannot be managed with a 2 or 3 hour presence on site each day. Your basically describing a consultants on site representative, who's duties also can't realistically be discharged in these daily 2 to 3 hour visits to site. I like Malcolm can foresee many problems arising over those 12 weeks, that your not going to be in a position to control. You may even unintentionally be the cause of some of those problems. This needs far more thought and application, than i think you or your customer has considered. The contractor could very easily make more out of this project in Extras, than the actual contract price if you or your customer are not VERY careful!!

 

[wattsup]

Thanks guys, what stated above is my concern, I have already prepared the specification.
All prices are based on my spec. However there are unknowns.

The job is not technically challenging, but to be honest a real ball breaker ( I did turn the job down because the job will be a real pig to do, along with unknowns. I was not prepared to commit ( I made excuses, too busy, not enough manpower for three months etc etc...but probably stupidely said I would project manage others (simply because of my knowledge of the building and the clients requirements. The guys they have in mind are far too low in price imho. I have no doubt I would be the fall guy, should it turn ape****.

I do have many bases covered regards 'unknowns' hence they want me to oversee costs for the unknowns..and give guidance, if extras are at a fair price or how to cut costs, for which I will need to discuss with the contractor etc

 

[wattsup]

Basically I will oversee the spec I have given and carried out to a good standard, and within time allowed. (time penalties will occur) However, the time allowed for the spec, is generous. And shouldn't be a problem (assuming the contractor is competent)

Which is causing concern, I believe they are too cheap, I had no say whom was awarded the contract

 

[alarm man]

as e54 said really,to me it sounds more of a bit of a side job than a real job,your only giving your knowledge of the building,a 90k job is pretty small,a few quid in your pocket with no questions asked seems the type of job it is..

 

[Engineer54]

Can't really look at this situation in that way alarm man, he has drawn up the specification, which makes him responsible. If this contractor employs a QS on his pay roll, he will in all honesty make mincemeat of an armature specification, that's basically there job, to look for extras etc...

Once a specification forms part of the signed contract, then any changes need to be agreed by BOTH parties. That's where problems start to rear there ugly head!! One party wanting or are looking for a cheaper job, while the other wants to go by the letter of the contract, or they are losing money. Any changes from the original submission, will normally in one way or another incur extra costs.

The problem always comes where one side is, let's say lax on contractual matters and the other is a contractual piranha... Guess who will come out on top at the end of the day???

 

[alarm man]

fair enough e54,i think this one might see some problems...maybe an interesting read..surely a foreman could run this job,seems to small for a pm

 

[Engineer54]

Agreed, but maybe too late for that. It would have been better if our man had quoted for one of his men to be on site for the duration, and if any problems occurred call our man back to site pronto!! lol!!

This all may work out fine for both parties as is, i'm really just being the devils advocate here, i've seen too many small jobs and sub contracts turn into absolute nightmares. Just because they were considered too small to cross all the T's and dot all the i's !!

 

[wattsup]

90k is indeed small ish, I have ran 4.5M jobs big ish

But to the company concerned 90k is big money

There is no question of nod's as good as wink, in your back pocket son, say no more...etc

All will be invoiced, a few quid is rewiring a mates house.

I can understand your thoughts however;

Basically I'm looking for guideline pricing for a 'real project, clerk of works manager' although not a 'real job' full time

My minimum call out rate is £45.00 which covers 1 hour.

I know I will need to visit site every day, answer questions, make deviations from the spec, alter drawings etc. Be available by phone/email etc etc etc...
But I'm not going to take all this on for a call out rate

I suppose what I'm looking for is how to word my prices

MY price is £X per day for a max of xhrs..how do you price it, the client will reasonably ask how long on site each day? so many unknowns (please bear in mind I have to liase with none electrical minded, I have to justify costs

I'm not about to undersell myself, on the other hand the client will want to know what they are getting for their money

 

[alarm man]

cant see how this job would pay on its own,if he had say 5 sites running the same way it could,its too small to have a pm its a foreman/supervisor role at best

 

[alarm man]

90k is indeed small ish, I have ran 4.5M jobs big ish

But to the company concerned 90k is big money

There is no question of nod's as good as wink, in your back pocket son, say no more...etc

All will be invoiced, a few quid is rewiring a mates house.

I can understand your thoughts however;

Basically I'm looking for guideline pricing for a 'real project, clerk of works manager' although not a 'real job' full time

My minimum call out rate is £45.00 which covers 1 hour.

I know I will need to visit site every day, answer questions, make deviations from the spec, alter drawings etc. Be available by phone/email etc etc etc...
But I'm not going to take all this on for a call out rate

I suppose what I'm looking for is how to word my prices

MY price is £X per day for a max of xhrs..how do you price it, the client will reasonably ask how long on site each day? so many unknowns (please bear in mind I have to liase with none electrical minded, I have to justify costs

I'm not about to undersell myself, on the other hand the client will want to know what they are getting for their money

ive only ever been a foreman on site ie someone who can get the lads up for work after a night out,so e54 is your man as he is a proper engineer in the real sense.

 

[Engineer54]

How to ask for advise on a buckshee part time supervision fee!! I wouldn't know where to start ...lol!!

All i can suggest is base your fee on your call out fee, plus whatever you feel is reasonable for the responsibility you have placed on yourself, by drawing up the contract specification. Have you already billed for the drawing up of the specifications and contract drawings?? You could also add a separate fee for any drawing and specification changes, and any out of normal working hours, such as weekend visits to site.

If this was a normal arrangement, it would be easier to give advise on supervision fee's. But these are your drawings and specifications. Normally you would price on a percentage basis of the total contract price. Simple supervision is usually around 2.5 upto 10% depending on the complexity and responsibility of the project.

I hope you can appreciate the difficulty of anyone answering your question on fee's, nothing here is anywhere near standard, popping onto a project for 2 or 3 hours a day isn't an easy thing to price especially when we know nothing of your discussed obligations with your client...

 

[wattsup]

Ahhh..I've heard the 10% - 4% thing before. It does make sense thanks

I've managed to get myself in a corner, and to be honest I wish i'd bit my tongue

But i'm where i am too late (unless i lose face) Well I'm going to go high, way high..very high in fact...So they can make there own minds up. I~ could prob do half the job for my consultation...oh well, it's the only way out of a potential disaster