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codger

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Good evening gents. Needing a favour if poss. I'm involved with training apprentice sparks. I'm moving to another college and would like to boost my knowledge base with regards to PV systems. I've been looking about and have read a huge amount of information, which is all valid information I'm sure, but it is a lot to take in. Is there any chance I can ask you guys for some fotos of PV installations you have fitted.
Also, if poss. Can someone explain to me how the system is connected to the consumer unit of the dwelling.? Does it terminate into the outgoing side of an MCB within the consumer unit.? Seems a bit dubious.......

Thanks, much appreciated.
 
The best method of connecting a PV system in is by splitting the tails, installing a henley block and a new set of tails to a seperate garage unit / dual pole MCB (or dual pole RCD + single pole MCB). This does pose difficulties in terms of safely isolating the supply while installing the henley block in most situations where a suppliers cut out isn't present, but it is the best and safest way of doing it all round, so IMO the arcane rules not allowing the pulling of suppliers fuses take second preference to the safety of my staff and customers.... not entirely sure how you want to teach this though.

Installing to a spare way on a none RCD board is fine in theory, but leaves it open to being a problem in future if a new board is installed and it ends up being put on the load side of a shared RCD at that point.

In theory installing to the load side of a shared RCD should be safe, and the ESC allow for it in their guidance, as when the RCD trips, although the inverter is still operating for a short time afterwards (up to 5 seconds), the inverter is then isolated from earth, so there is no return path to the inveter via any fault to earth, so it ends up temporarily being a separated circuit.... but there is considerable debate about this, and in some situations it seems to make the RCD test not work properly, so is causing problems with other electricians doing PIRs (or whatever they're now called) after the PV has been installed.

There is another very good reason not to do this, which is that all inverters feed earth leakage current down the earth line, which on TL inverters is usually in the region of 10mA, so if they're sharing a 30mA RCD this makes the chances of nuisance tripping far higher from as little as 5-10mA (depending on the actual exact setting of the RCD) from other circuits. The manufacturers guidance is for 100mA RCDs to be used when used on shared circuits, to avoid this, but this would conflict with BS7671 in most situations where the 30mA RCD is a requirement for the shared circuits.

So basically it's generally considered very bad practice to install to the load side of a shared RCD even if some guidance does say it's ok, so please don't be teaching your students to do it.... but also please understand the mechanism by which it can actually be shown to still be safe and regs compliant, if not a good idea.

The alternative is a high integrity board set up with the PV connected to a way that's not protected by the shared RCDs, which is fine if it's a possibility, but is rarely the case.

we've got loads of photos of solar installations on our website . If you post up any that you like, I can try to dig out the big version to email to you.

Also, if you're actually planning on training sparks up for solar installations for MCS standards, please try to set up some sort of arrangement with local solar companies to take on a few of the course members each time to get experience on a few jobs before they go off by themselves, as with the best will in the world, you can't teach this properly in the classroom by itself. I'd also ask if any would be willing to come in and do some training, or a q&A session or something if you're not experienced in solar, as you can't beat hands on experience.
 
We've been in to our local colleges a number of times and running short sesssions on what's involved in PV just to show them how different it is from normal 'sparking' - at one time I had 8 (yes EIGHT) apprentices on board and gave them a thorough soaking in it!

SO if you can, it's definitely worthwhile getting one of the local installers in to do a session. - A properly designed and installed PV system is a LOT more complicated than a house rewire!
 
as when the RCD trips, although the inverter is still operating for a short time afterwards (up to 5 seconds), the inverter is then isolated from earth, so there is no return path to the inveter via any fault to earth, so it ends up temporarily being a separated circuit.

Not sure I understand how this works, anything that is earthed should never get isolated from earth (if installed properly).
 
The case of the inverter is still earthed, but both the live and the neutral from the inverter are not connected to or referenced to earth in any way so touching either should not be able to give you an electric shock after the double pole rcd has tripped.
 
Cheers for the replies lads. Very much appreciated.
Gavin A, sound advice mate. I firmly believe in the benefits of 'hands on' experience with some competent installers. For years I've been asking my bosses to get me on placement with a reputable company, and to get some kind of 'tie-up' with a leading solar pv installer, but, alas, time is money. So it looks like it'll be down to myself to sort this out.
To let you know, I'm not planning on teaching these apprentices anything with the misguided belief that what I teach them will allow them to go and carry out any kind of installations by themselves. It's just that recently I've been looking at some of the installs and what originally seemed like a straight forward install on paper is in fact a complicated and hazardous situation to be in. The college I am moving to are placing a lot of eggs in the P.V basket and I would just like to broaden my knowledge base on this having spent most of my teaching time so far dealing with the usual apprentice subjects. I am a time-served sparky to trade so appreciate the difference between reading it online / text book and actually getting up there with a team and seeing it first hand.
Once again, thanks for the info.
 
The college I am moving to are placing a lot of eggs in the P.V basket.

Well I wouldnt expect to be with them long...

Don't get me wrong PV is here to stay and knowing how to install it is important, however it really is a specialist area , in the same way that installing and commissioning 3 phase air source inverter controlled heat pumps is - and I see a LOT more of those that I do PV systems... (well we mainly do commercial work..)

PV install will never be a job for Joe Sparks, even the C&G 2399 only really just starts to cover it. It would be better to cover all the types of renewables, not just PV - PV, Heat pumps, air -air, air -water, gshp, heat recovery etc etc. and turn out good qualified renewable technology electricians - now THEY will have a future.
 
The case of the inverter is still earthed, but both the live and the neutral from the inverter are not connected to or referenced to earth in any way so touching either should not be able to give you an electric shock after the double pole rcd has tripped.
this is what I was trying to say.
 
You can be an electrician in a week with a part P course and another add three days for PV. This would get you to domestic installer level.

For instance the forces offer this to the grunts when they leave .........sort of makes a mockery of apprentiships.

The fault lies with the registration bodies for setting the crossbar to membership so low.
 
The fault lies with the registration bodies for setting the crossbar to membership so low.

This is a problem with all registration bodies. The fundamental flaw in the system is that the registration bodies NEED companies signed to then so it isn't in their interest to fail people. Some NICEIC sparks are dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -

The fault lies with the registration bodies for setting the crossbar to membership so low.

This is a problem with all registration bodies. The fundamental flaw in the system is that the registration bodies NEED companies signed to then so it isn't in their interest to fail people. Some NICEIC sparks are dangerous.
 

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