qualifaction meanings and requirments

[Graham Coughlan]

Hey guys

A few questions about the 2391 and the eal inspection and testing course level3.

Been on the EAL course for a year now and soon to finish it. I assumed it held the same weight as the 2391 but ive now been told i still have to do that course after this one!

So does this course fron EAL hold no weight or can i use this course instead or the other one considering it covers the same.

Its getting a bit depressing now because its becoming really hard to find an electrical job and its so confusing with all these courses

Could someone please explain these to me

Cheers

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

I've never heard the EAL Level 3 mentioned before so to me that can't be a good thing. Whenever anyone I know has talked about doing their testing and inspection course, "2391" always gets said, never "EAL Level 3". After having a quick look on the internet it read like the EAL course allows you to certify periodic inspections but not full tests?

I might be completely wrong in everything I've just said by the way. Just how I see things from my viewpoint.

 

[Risteard]

After having a quick look on the internet it read like the EAL course allows you to certify periodic inspections but not full tests?

In fairness no course (including City & Guilds courses) can allow you to do or disallow you from doing anything. You must be competent, not qualified. Competence includes training and experience.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

In fairness no course (including City & Guilds courses) can allow you to do or disallow you from doing anything. You must be competent, not qualified. Competence includes training and experience.

Then why do we do courses to gain qualifications if we don't need them?

 

[Plonker 3]

Then why do we do courses to gain qualifications if we don't need them?

To prove competence.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

To prove competence.

Thus making Risteard's statement incorrect: "You must be competent, not qualified."

 

[Plonker 3]

Well proving competence is the big thing, I know a few people who can drive a car competently but don't have a licence, on the other hand I know people with a driving licence who can't drive.

Who is a judge going to be more lenient on should both appear before him for the same driving offence?

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

Well said! I was thinking along the lines of apprentices and electricians mates, how they can be seen as competent persons yet they aren't qualified.
To go back to the OP though, I'm prettty sure you need your 2391-10 to be able to test and inspect as a qualified person and not just a competent one.

 

[trev]

The bottom line here is what is viewed as THE qual to have by employers. How many job ads have you seen that specify this EAL version that I've never even heard of until I read this thread. I'm sure it's a decent informative course but is it going to help you get anywhere?
I'm sorry to say mate I think you've been sold a pig in a poke

 

[leckyant]

Graham
Get out of the game mate. We,re being wizzed with technical jargon from the authorities, dumbed down by the Ltd companies and the agencies.
Go find yourself an acre of land and grow some veg!

Ant A retired spark at 52

 

[Risteard]

Thus making Risteard's statement incorrect: "You must be competent, not qualified."

With respect I don't believe that what I said was incorrect. At the end of the day, God forbid that there should be a question of competence, then ultimately that will be decided by a court and not by any body issuing qualifications.

 

[Adam W]

How come you chose this 'EAL' over City & Guilds? From what I can make out this 'EAL' is aimed more at domestic installers rather than electricians.

 

[Barneyb57]

The EAL Level 2 course is a recognised qualification which is on par with City and Guilds its just a different course/qualification provider,,usualy comes with the Part P qualification,,,the one I have recently done also encompasses the JIB ECS Card qualification, all legal and above board,, it allows Domestic Installers to sign off their OWN work.likewise with 2392...it is a good course and covers aspects of domestic installations,,,I did it as a means to refresh and to a point update my existing quals as a former Electrician looking to return to the trade after leaving the Army,,,I have also done the 17th Edition,,,,,last time I worked professionaly as an electrician we were on the 15th edition, I have just also done the inspection and testing Course and the exams...(awaiting the results to come through),,,

What does cause confusion with all this,, and I can sort of concur with the original poster on this,,,,you can be Part P, or 2391 or 2392 Qualified, but neither qual means anything unless you are registered with the NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT, etc, etc, in respect of certificating your or others work, in short You HAVE TO BE REGISTERED...

Which leads me on to another point,,,,as I am now near leaving the service and looking to get back into the trade/indusryobvioulsy I am looking at jobs that are advertised,, and I am wondering if these employment agencies and indeed in some cases companies that are looking to employ an electrician or a Maintenance Electrician,,, they do seem to expect every Electrician to be 2391 qualified, why? Surely a large company is the registered body and not every single electrician in their employ needs to be 2391,, doesnt mean a thing if they personaly are not registered does it?? so why would a registered company need all their employee's to be registered,,,is it a case of being Inspection and Testing Trained, as in having done the course but not hold the actual qualification,,just because you dont have the qualification does not mean that you do not know how to test and inspect...what it does mean is that you cannot sign the work off and issue a Certificate,,,but would you need to as the Company you work for would do that.

Seems to me that these agencies and some non electrical companies that want to recruit an electrician to their maintenance teams do not really understand the puprpose of Part P, 2391 and 2392 qualifications and even to some extent the 17th edition, as they are not always relevant to the individuals role/job...and as said mean nothing unless you are registered..they see it as just another electrical qualification and then insist on everyone having it,,,when they really do not understand what its all about...

For instance..I recently saw a job advertised for a Marine Electrician,,,wanted to work ON SHIPS/YACHTS and BOATS on all Marine Electrical Installations,,,the Applicant MUST hold the 17th Edition......Why? because unless Im mistaken the 17th Edition Wiring regulations BS 7671 that we all know and love,,, do not apply to Marine Electricial Installations on Ships/Yachts/Boats,, as I understand it.....

Your thoughts please...

 

[Adam W]

For instance..I recently saw a job advertised for a Marine Electrician,,,wanted to work ON SHIPS/YACHTS and BOATS on all Marine Electrical Installations,,,the Applicant MUST hold the 17th Edition......Why? because unless Im mistaken the 17th Edition Wiring regulations BS 7671 that we all know and love,,, do not apply to Marine Electricial Installations on Ships/Yachts/Boats,, as I understand it.....

Your thoughts please...

They stipulate that where I work. While BS7671 doesn't apply to boats the principles of electricity still apply so BS7671 is a good standard to follow in the absence of anything else. As it happens there are a set of special marine regulations although the company would be asking a lot for agency electricians to hold a special marine electrical qualification.
As I've mentioned before, my local college insist you must hold a full qualification (such as 2330) before enrolling for the 2382, likewise you must hold 2382 before enrolling on 2391, so you know that someone who has a 2391 from that college will have a decent set of qualifications.
Sadly not all training providers do this so confusion arises.

While 2391 may be an 'inspecting and testing qualification' it doesn't have to be specifically for someone to fill in inspection and testing forms - you will need to know what the inspector will be looking for in order to install it to their requirements, so the 2391 is a useful qualification to have even if you never touch a test instrument.

Many people on here will tell you that this "part P qualification" is essentially a waste of money - if offers an introduction to building regs to satisfy scheme providers, in the same way as the 2392 offers an introduction to inspection & testing.
I've never seen any employer ask for these qualifications, and their content is included in the 2330; again they seem to be aimed more towards domestic installers.

 

[Barneyb57]

Should be ineteresting come December when it all changes from the 2391/2 to 2394/5,,,whats going to happen then,, will they expect everyone to go and re qual in 2394/5,,,,same course, same qual just a different name, or will they still recognise the 2391/2??

I did originally the C & G Parts 1 and 2 236 electrical installations,,,people often say whats that?? too many people out there for my likeing not accepting peoples quals simply because they are not what they read....236 = 2330 hmm never heard of 236 so will disregard it...hence no invitation for interview/job offer....and its happening again now with the EAL v City and Guilds,,,because EAL is a new thing people see it, dont know what it is and your applications in the bin they dont realise or in most cases even bother find out what it is,, if they did then they would know that it is equivilent of the City and Guilds...its just a new and different provider of Training and qualifications perfectly legal and Officialy recognised. in respect of Inspection and Testing,, I have recently done the course 5 day course City and Guilds Now although I have not yet had the results of the course back,, as we were told this would 4 to 6 weeks to come through what I do have is a certificate that says that I have successfully completed a Course in Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations,,,,that to me says that I can test and Inspect, and that I have been or received training to do that,,,,so is that enough for some employers especially if Im not Certifying mine or other peoples work,,,but I am Competent to test and inspect an installation. to me its a fine play on words...

I note your comments on the BS 7671 and the Marine Regulations and yes the principles are the same,,,,but much of the equipment and cable used is not,,,so I dont think they should be allowed to put a firm stipulation of MUST BE 17th Edition on the list of requirements for applying for the Job,,,,that must put a large amount of good Sparkies off from applying for a job of that kind...which in turn must serve only to cut down thier Pool of applicants to recruit from, and they could be looking for months for someone to fit the job role unneccesarily...

 

[Adam W]

With the amount of work around I don't think they're going to be hunting around for months or even hours for someone to fill a position.
As I said if every training provider will only accept enrolment applications for 17th edition from people who already have a 'full' course such as 236, 2360, 2330, 2357 or equivalent, then asking for someone with a current regs qualification will ensure they have a technical certificate of some description, and be reasonably up to date.

 

[Barneyb57]

With the amount of work around I don't think they're going to be hunting around for months or even hours for someone to fill a position.
As I said if every training provider will only accept enrolment applications for 17th edition from people who already have a 'full' course such as 236, 2360, 2330, 2357 or equivalent, then asking for someone with a current regs qualification will ensure they have a technical certificate of some description, and be reasonably up to date.

Quote....
then asking for someone with a current regs qualification will ensure they have a technical certificate of some description, and be reasonably up to date. unquote will it though?? You dont have to be an experienced electrician to have the 17th Edition Qualification do you.in reality you dont have to know anything about Electrics but can still pass the course..and as I said on the flip side of that you may have an experienced electrician who for whatever reason does not have the 17th edition...who could be put off from applying for the job simply because he/she isnt 17th edition,, yet would be more than capable of doing the job...I agree with what you say about the amount of work that is around,,,but the point I was trying to make is,, if the recruiter didnt put that stipulation on the vacancy they would probably fill the vacancy even quicker...the other point being that why put a stipulation of a certain qualification on a job that does not need that particular qualification.....dont see the point in it,, unless they just do it as a blanket thing becaue they dont know any better?? just my thoughts on it...

 

[Adam W]

... then asking for someone with a current regs qualification will ensure they have a technical certificate of some description, and be reasonably up to date.

will it though??

Yes it will...

if every training provider will only accept enrolment applications for 17th edition from people who already have a 'full' course such as 236, 2360, 2330, 2357 or equivalent,

With the amount of work around I don't think they're going to be hunting around for months or even hours for someone to fill a position - they don't need to fill positions any quicker.

 

[spark 68]

Which leads me on to another point,,,,as I am now near leaving the service and looking to get back into the trade/indusryobvioulsy I am looking at jobs that are advertised,, and I am wondering if these employment agencies and indeed in some cases companies that are looking to employ an electrician or a Maintenance Electrician,,, they do seem to expect every Electrician to be 2391 qualified, why? Surely a large company is the registered body and not every single electrician in their employ needs to be 2391,, Seems to me that these agencies and some non electrical companies that want to recruit an electrician to their maintenance teams do not really understand the puprpose of Part P, 2391 and 2392 qualifications and even to some extent the 17th edition, as they are not always relevant to the individuals role/job...and as said mean nothing unless you are registered..they see it as just another electrical qualification and then insist on everyone having it,,,when they really do not understand what its all about...

Your thoughts please...

I think it is partly to help with the shortlist of the recruitment agency/HR staff, due to the sheer number of applicants chasing every job, so by setting the bar at 2391 this cuts the numbers down.

Also some jobs are 'multi-skilled', the catch all for paying you installers wages, and expecting you to work above what they are willing to pay you.

 

[Barneyb57]

Yes it will...


With the amount of work around I don't think they're going to be hunting around for months or even hours for someone to fill a position - they don't need to fill positions any quicker.

well no actually it does not,, I have just recently back in April done the 17th edition on the same course as me were people who had never worked as a electrician,,,they ALL passed the 17th edition exam,,,,,ask them to wire a Lighting circuit with a few 2 way switches and an intermediate switch in it they wouldnt have a clue where to start,,,,,not all training providers insist on you having previous experience or any other electrical qualifications,,,,Back in Mid May I did the Inspection and testing again on that course there were guys who had not done the 17th a couple had done the DEI Course but that was it,,,,having the 17th and or previous experience was a suggestion not a pre-requisit....had it of been I could agree with you....but it aint the case...not a hard and fast rule it seems,,,probably should be in all cases,, but sadly it aint..

 

[Barneyb57]

Hi yeh that would make sense,,,does nothing for the individual though eh....thanks for your reply..

 

[Barneyb57]

I think it is partly to help with the shortlist of the recruitment agency/HR staff, due to the sheer number of applicants chasing every job, so by setting the bar at 2391 this cuts the numbers down.

Also some jobs are 'multi-skilled', the catch all for paying you installers wages, and expecting you to work above what they are willing to pay you.

Hi yeh that would make sense,,,does nothing for the individual though eh....thanks for your reply..

 

[Adam W]

well no actually it does not,, I have just recently back in April done the 17th edition on the same course as me were people who had never worked as a electrician,,,they ALL passed the 17th edition exam,,,,,ask them to wire a Lighting circuit with a few 2 way switches and an intermediate switch in it they wouldnt have a clue where to start,,,,,not all training providers insist on you having previous experience or any other electrical qualifications,,,,Back in Mid May I did the Inspection and testing again on that course there were guys who had not done the 17th a couple had done the DEI Course but that was it,,,,having the 17th and or previous experience was a suggestion not a pre-requisit....had it of been I could agree with you....but it aint the case...not a hard and fast rule it seems,,,probably should be in all cases,, but sadly it aint..

I never said they did.
I said IF they did...

 

[Guest55]

..............in respect of certificating your or others work, in short You HAVE TO BE REGISTERED...

Sorry but that statement is incorrect , no you dont.
To carry out domestic electrical work that is notifiable being in a part p scheme allows you to self-notify at a reduced cost.
Testing and inspecting in itself is not notifiable work and you dont need to be registered with anyone to do it , you just need to be competent.
Building regs notification and electrical certification are seperate elements , which is where i think youre getting mixed up.

 

[Barneyb57]

Sorry but that statement is incorrect , no you dont.
To carry out domestic electrical work that is notifiable being in a part p scheme allows you to self-notify at a reduced cost.
Testing and inspecting in itself is not notifiable work and you dont need to be registered with anyone to do it , you just need to be competent.
Building regs notification and electrical certification are seperate elements , which is where i think youre getting mixed up.

Yes in respect of minor works and Part P stuff..reports etc,...But Ive just done the course and on the forms we used, which I believe are the new type of forms that are yet to come out,,,,there is a section on the NEW FORMS where you as the inspector have to put in what type of tester was used, its calibration date and if I remember correctly the calibratin certificate number,,,and also what Organisation you are a member of as in NICEIC, ECA etc, etc, and your registration/membership Number,,,,I think this has been done probably because as it stands anyone could sign the forms and who is to know if they are competent or not, or 2391 qualified or not....the forms are then sent to whoever you are registered with and then they send them or inform the Local Authority,,,which inturm validates the Certificate.....This is in respect of New Installations,, as in the Electrical Installation Certificate,,,,not the case as the moment as you say,,,but I can only tell you what we were told and shown on the course I did,,,,something for the future methinks,,,,balls ache I know,,just something else that will sooner or later be put upon us...yes more red tape no doubt...and we were definatley told that to sign off work you have to be registered with one of the organisations NICEIC, ECA, ELECSA, NAPIT,,,now if thats not true then I for one would like to know why we were told that,, because as you probably know to get registered you have to be able to have jobs available for inspection (x3) by those organisations never mind the £300 -£400 it costs to get registered. When I worked last on the tools as an electrician there was none of this and the only organisation then was the NICEIC and I have on many occassions gone around with one of their inspectors checking out our jobs so that we could stay registered,, and to do work say on local authority stuff, schools, hospitals etc, etc, you had to be a registered contractor...

 

[Guest55]

Firstly , the box printed on electrical certificates asking if youre a scheme member has always been there , its nothing new and its optional anyway.

Secondly , being registered with the nic doesnt prove your competent at testing , it just proves youre willing to hand over £500 a year just to drive round with their stickers on the side of your van.

Thirdly , for the last 5 years i've been carrying out inspections on a freelance basis , not registered with anyone ,
and this includes doing commercial PIR's on hotels etc. requested by the local council whom have always accepted my certificates.

Under EU law the labour market is open to anyone without restrictions - dont believe all the crap thats out there.

 

[Barneyb57]

Firstly , the box printed on electrical certificates asking if youre a scheme member has always been there , its nothing new and its optional anyway.

Secondly , being registered with the nic doesnt prove your competent at testing , it just proves youre willing to hand over £500 a year just to drive round with their stickers on the side of your van.

Thirdly , for the last 5 years i've been carrying out inspections on a freelance basis , not registered with anyone ,
and this includes doing commercial PIR's on hotels etc. requested by the local council whom have always accepted my certificates.

Under EU law the labour market is open to anyone without restrictions - dont believe all the crap thats out there.

Mate I dont doubt what you are saying,, but I am only saying what we were told on the 2391 course that I did what 3 weeks ago now and the forms they had us using,,,,(look at the Minor Works Certificate) in discussion about all this on the course it is thought that all this is coming about for two reasons mainly,,,1. its another way of raising revenue, 2, they have cottoned on to the fact that there are people out there signing off work as a competent person,,,but what they are saying now is,, who says they are competent? was it you or someone else who said that you dont need 2391 to sign off work? well what they are saying now is you can (or will be) only be able to sign off work if you are a registered member of the NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT, etc, etc, and to be registered with one of them you have to have passed the the 2391 course and exam..supply your quals and certs and they inspect your work and test equipment (as you probably know)..then you can be rated as competent,,,because as it stands, anyone your grannie could sign the forms,,,and that is what they are looking to do, to stop just anyone signing the forms,,,Ok It's not come in yet,,but the feeling is that it will in the near future....If you look through the threads on here someone, one of the admins I think has put a list on here of the Available Organisations as in NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT, etc, etc, that you can join and become registered with,, and he clearly ends it in,, which is what you need to be able to sign off your own work,,,now if its there for your own work,,,makes sense realy to realise that it wont be long before you have to be registered as a competent person to sign off other peoples work as well as your own,,,at the moment its like a loop hole if you like,, and one that they will do their damdest to fill especialy if they can make money from it...yes at our expense...

Do I agree with it ?? No not really,, but I can see the reason behind it,,,and why they will bring it in....

Hell when I started out in the trade back in the 70's you never had any of this crap,,,,if you did a new build or a rewire you completed a form that was called and Installation Completion Form,,,the local electricity boards inspector came out had a look around,check your bonding etc,etc, tested your work,,(of course you would have tested it first) ,if it passed then he connected it up,,,,job done..and anyone could sign the form..

 

[alanrowe]

I phoned the nic the other day, asked them what i needed to get my part p sorted. The guy told me if iv got the 17th i can apply, later on in 2012 you will need nvq 3 to apply so i dont understand why you think you need 2391 to register, because ive spoke to them the other day and its not what they said.....iv just done my 2330 level 3 got a bit of experience so im not pretending to now it all because ive got a long way to go.!!! to be any good that is..but when you need to now about the nic , you need to just phone them !!!! seems to me that anyone can get part p because anyone can get the 17th. Im looking to do the 2391 this year, i dont really now why i need it, what it really is.! Whats the difference between part p and 2391? I now its a testing qual obvious, but what will it allow my to do ?

 

[Barneyb57]

I phoned the nic the other day, asked them what i needed to get my part p sorted. The guy told me if iv got the 17th i can apply, later on in 2012 you will need nvq 3 to apply so i dont understand why you think you need 2391 to register, because ive spoke to them the other day and its not what they said.....iv just done my 2330 level 3 got a bit of experience so im not pretending to now it all because ive got a long way to go.!!! to be any good that is..but when you need to now about the nic , you need to just phone them !!!! seems to me that anyone can get part p because anyone can get the 17th. Im looking to do the 2391 this year, i dont really now why i need it, what it really is.! Whats the difference between part p and 2391? I now its a testing qual obvious, but what will it allow my to do ?

Right Firstly can I stop you right there,,its not me thats saying that you must have the 2391,,,as it stands at the moment as many on here will agree you dont,,,,and thats the problem,, I have just 3 weeks ago done the 2391 course and exam,, I have to wait 4 -6 weks to get my results,, si I dont know if I have the Qualification or not as yet , I may have to go back for a re-sit or a re test on the practical bit,, I dont know,, what I am saying is, on the course in discussions it is felt by those in the know,,,that in the future in order to become registered on one of the existing schemes, one of the requirements in respect of testing and inspection as a competent person and being registered is that you will have have to of done the 2391 course and the exam and possess the qualification,,,so that you can sign off work,, thats how they reckon it will go,, its not at the moment, but they reckon thats how it will be in the future, at a guess I would say they will bring it in as and when and if they go to the 18th edition or something like that,,,I dont know...

Part P and 2391 whats the difference,,,,well as I understand it and I am PART P Qualified/Competent,,,,,Part P means that you can sign off your OWN work,,, and your own work only,,,,likewise with the 2392 qualification,, own work only,,,,,whereas with the 2391 you can sign off not only your own work but other peoples work aswell, and carry out Inspection and Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations......On my Part P course we were told that you had to be registered on one of the schemes to be able to sign off your work,, like wise with the 2391/2392,,,,but as we are reminded on here more and more many are saying that that is not the case and you do not have to be registered,,,,so if that is the case why are all having to do all these courses and exams to get a qualification that we apparently do NOT need to sign off work,,,,,I for one now would like some official clarification on this,,, because these courses and exam fee's are not cheap and niether are the registration fee's as well as time consuming....I think what they are and will be playing on is the competent person bit,,,,at the moment all you need to be is a competent person,,,,it would appear that what the powers that be are saying is,,,Who says you are a competent person? I have no doubt that they are doing it for their own financial gain,,,

I do feel now its time that we had some real proper and official enlightenment on all this,,,or is it just one big rip off????? I dont know..and I can only say what we were told on my course and by our particular Trainer.

 

[alanrowe]

i dont believe 2391 makes you competent in a court...ive heard of a court case where the court didnt recognise 2391 as competent but recognised this guys fathers quals,,(degree.)

 

[Barneyb57]

i dont believe 2391 makes you competent in a court...ive heard of a court case where the court didnt recognise 2391 as competent but recognised this guys fathers quals,,(degree.)

So what would you suggest makes you a competent person,,,and what would you have to prove that you are competent? because from what I can gather on here some people seem to think that any body can call themselves a competent person? where is the fall back on that should something go wrong,,and its your neck on the block, because you signed the work off?

 

[Adam W]

So what would you suggest makes you a competent person,,,and what would you have to prove that you are competent? because from what I can gather on here some people seem to think that any body can call themselves a competent person? where is the fall back on that should something go wrong,,and its your neck on the block, because you signed the work off?

I suppose that would be for you to argue in court.
I forget what I was searching for but I once found details of a court case where something had gone wrong and an electrician was in the dock. It was mentioned in the case that the guy didn't have an NVQ3, which the JIB deem necessary to be called an 'electrician' and therefore be able to make final connections unsupervised. Presumably he thought he was sufficiently competent otherwise he wouldn't have made the connections, but he had difficulty proving it in court.

Same with the regs - they're non-statutory which means there's no requirement to follow them at all. It's probably best you do though, in case something goes wrong and you can prove that you've followed the code of best practice.

 

[maye34]

To go back to the OP though, I'm prettty sure you need your 2391-10 to be able to test and inspect as a qualified person and not just a competent one.
For more information visit dougleschan.com

 

[Graham Coughlan]

The bottom line here is what is viewed as THE qual to have by employers. How many job ads have you seen that specify this EAL version that I've never even heard of until I read this thread. I'm sure it's a decent informative course but is it going to help you get anywhere?
I'm sorry to say mate I think you've been sold a pig in a poke

Electrical and Electronic Engineering Technology, Construction, South Thames College