Question about sub meters

[phoneydee]

I have a 3 phase supply to my 1957 architect designed grade II listed house. I have just built an annexe to the property and want to run a supply from one of the unused phases. My supplier says: 'we don't do that sort of thing' and Western Power says: ' ask your supplier.' No independent electrician will do this as I understand they are not sanctioned to work on the equipment without permission from these companies. We have tried other suppliers (Utility Warehouse/Octopuss/Scottish Power/ NPower etc) Does anyone out there know how I untangle this web of nonsense? It's been ongoing for about 10 months now.

 

[UNG]

Are you sure the unused phases are live would be the first thing to check out after that you will probably need to make an application for a new meter connection to your chosen supplier.
Never dealt with Western Power as they are not on my patch so I don't have any of experience of how they work but a lot of the time you need to get past the call handlers to get any decent info with most DNO's

 

[Strima]

You need to request a new supply from your local DNO, distribution network operator. DNO list

UKPN example

They will then guide you through the process, they may send a surveyor out to look at your existing supply to see if it is suitable. You will also need to engage your supplier as they will need to fit a meter etc and you may also need a local electrician to certify the buildings electrical installation before they make any connections.

 

[phoneydee]

Are you sure the unused phases are live would be the first thing to check out after that you will probably need to make an application for a new meter connection to your chosen supplier

Thanks a lot for replying mate.

I was told by the Western Power guys that they were.

Is there not a possibility of getting a sub meter (by that I mean on the same bill without a separate standing charge) as the annexe does not need to be billed separately? Or is a sub meter effectively the new meter connection you are talking about?

No supplier I have spoken to seems to offer this service.

My perfect scenario would be ; Accessing on of the redundant phases but having it on the same bill as my existing supply. Not sure if I'm wishful thinking here or what.
[automerge]1598362017[/automerge]

You need to request a new supply from your local DNO, distribution network operator. DNO list

UKPN example

They will then guide you through the process, they may send a surveyor out to look at your existing supply to see if it is suitable. You will also need to engage your supplier as they will need to fit a meter etc and you may also need a local electrician to certify the buildings electrical installation before they make any connections.

Thanks for replying to my query mate.

My DNO Western Power stated :

"Unfortunately Western Power Distribution does not carry out the installation of meters.
As your current supplier can’t do this work you can apply to another supplier who will. I am unable to advise which supplier to go.

They will put a single phase meter onto one of the unused phases on your 3 phase cut out and your electrician would then need to wire it back to the annexe. We will need to provide you with a meter point administration number for the meter to be installed."

This was no help as I can not find a supplier who even understands what I'm asking for.

 

[Strima]

Does the supply to the annex need to be metered? As in will you be paying the bill for the electricity used? I should have asked that first...

Can you add a picture of your existing supply including the DNO supply and meter and existing circuit board you have?

 

[pc1966]

If you don't need/want separate metering then what is the cost for having the house upgraded to 3-phase (and hopefully an isolator switch fitted at the time)?

I presume they would change out your existing meter, fit a new 3-phase meter, and then your electrician can arrange for one of the two new phases to feed the annex. The 3rd phase might be useful if you want a high power EV charger in the future.

 

[Dartlec]

I have a 3 phase supply to my 1957 architect designed grade II listed house. I have just built an annexe to the property and want to run a supply from one of the unused phases. My supplier says: 'we don't do that sort of thing' and Western Power says: ' ask your supplier.' No independent electrician will do this as I understand they are not sanctioned to work on the equipment without permission from these companies. We have tried other suppliers (Utility Warehouse/Octopuss/Scottish Power/ NPower etc) Does anyone out there know how I untangle this web of nonsense? It's been ongoing for about 10 months now.

I've had a customer do something similar in the past - (this was in Kent, so UKPN)

They had a three phase meter changed to 2 single phase ones, though also had the fuse head moved at the same time. It doesn't sound like it should be difficult to arrange, but it may be a case of the person at the supplier not understanding what is required.

I assume the existing meter is only using one of the phases?

Have you tried approaching Western Power as if you wanted a new single phase supply installed. There is a cost involved of course, but that is a procedure they understand, with standard forms, etc., and when the person comes out to inspect he will see the 3 phase and confirm whether it is fine to connect to one of the other phases. Then once everything is agreed they will just run tails from the existing head which will supply a new meter (which can be arranged with whichever supplier you fancy).

In the meantime an electrican can run the necessary wires to the annex and install an appropriate isolator (almost certainly with fuse) which the meter supplier can then connect to.

 

[Vortigern]

Should be easy but the first step to doing this is to get a new MPAN number from the DNO. From there you go to the energy supplier and tell them the MPAN number and it should start rolling for you. Of course you can put in your own MID approved meter if you just want to be able to monitor electricity through there but if you are using another phase then you will have to go the MPAN route for a new supply. I have spent five hours on the phone with SSE to action this, I did not lose my temper once, but I did get a head ache though.
[automerge]1598366970[/automerge]

Western Power Distribution - Apply online for a new connection

Western Power Distribution is the electricity distribution network operator for the Midlands, South Wales and the South West. You can contact us 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 day a year.

www.westernpower.co.uk

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks a lot for replying mate.

I was told by the Western Power guys that they were.

Is there not a possibility of getting a sub meter (by that I mean on the same bill without a separate standing charge) as the annexe does not need to be billed separately? Or is a sub meter effectively the new meter connection you are talking about?

No supplier I have spoken to seems to offer this service.

My perfect scenario would be ; Accessing on of the redundant phases but having it on the same bill as my existing supply. Not sure if I'm wishful thinking here or what.

Unfortunately the only way that is possible is by upgrading your meter to a 3 phase meter. 'standard' domestic meters can only meter a single phase.

Depending on how big the annex is, you may find you don't really need to use the second phase anyway. A single phase 100A supply will cover a lot of house these days, unless there are multiple electric showers or ovens, etc that take a heavy load.

Is there an electrician on the job already? That's the sort of advice they should be able to give based on an informed knowledge of the current and potential loads.

 

[Vortigern]

As well you need to get the supply all laid in to the main cut-out and do what ever wiring is needed at the annexe then get the tails connected into the meter. An Electrician will do that for you. MPAN from DNO for new supply, meter from energy supplier.

 

[pc1966]

Depending on how big the annex is, you may find you don't really need to use the second phase anyway. A single phase 100A supply will cover a lot of house these days, unless there are multiple electric showers or ovens, etc that take a heavy load.

<= This

Do you know what the current supply is rated at? (e.g. 60A, 80A, 100A typically)

Is there clearly a need for more than that for house + annex?

If not then you can save a lot of time and trouble. If you don't know then you should be looking at what loads you have and getting a bit of advice on what is realistically needed (as rarely is everything on simultaneously at full power for any significant time).

 

[phoneydee]

Does the supply to the annex need to be metered? As in will you be paying the bill for the electricity used? I should have asked that first...

Can you add a picture of your existing supply including the DNO supply and meter and existing circuit board you have?

Here is everything in the electricity cupboard. Thx
[automerge]1598387203[/automerge]

If you don't need/want separate metering then what is the cost for having the house upgraded to 3-phase (and hopefully an isolator switch fitted at the time)?

I presume they would change out your existing meter, fit a new 3-phase meter, and then your electrician can arrange for one of the two new phases to feed the annex. The 3rd phase might be useful if you want a high power EV charger in the future.

Thanks for replying to my query mate.
That's a great idea. Who do you suggest would fit a 3 phase meter?
[automerge]1598387280[/automerge]

Unfortunately the only way that is possible is by upgrading your meter to a 3 phase meter. 'standard' domestic meters can only meter a single phase.

Depending on how big the annex is, you may find you don't really need to use the second phase anyway. A single phase 100A supply will cover a lot of house these days, unless there are multiple electric showers or ovens, etc that take a heavy load.

Is there an electrician on the job already? That's the sort of advice they should be able to give based on an informed knowledge of the current and potential loads.

Thanks for replying mate. This new 3 phase meter sounds like the way to go.

 

[pc1966]

That look like quite an old cut-out, though seems in clean condition.

Ask your supplier (billing company), they should at least have a standard form/process for requesting a supply upgrade.

 

[phoneydee]

Should be easy but the first step to doing this is to get a new MPAN number from the DNO. From there you go to the energy supplier and tell them the MPAN number and it should start rolling for you. Of course you can put in your own MID approved meter if you just want to be able to monitor electricity through there but if you are using another phase then you will have to go the MPAN route for a new supply. I have spent five hours on the phone with SSE to action this, I did not lose my temper once, but I did get a head ache though.
[automerge]1598366970[/automerge]

Western Power Distribution - Apply online for a new connection

Western Power Distribution is the electricity distribution network operator for the Midlands, South Wales and the South West. You can contact us 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 day a year.

www.westernpower.co.uk

Well done keeping your temper. It's been a trial for me too. This is holding up the whole build.

 

[Dartlec]

Here is everything in the electricity cupboard. Thx
[automerge]1598387203[/automerge]

Thanks for replying to my query mate.
That's a great idea. Who do you suggest would fit a 3 phase meter?
[automerge]1598387280[/automerge]

Thanks for replying mate. This new 3 phase meter sounds like the way to go.

The meter is installed by the electricity supplier, though I suspect many of them won't do domestic 3 phase meters, but some of the big names may do. No idea of the costs though - and it may involve getting the DNO to upgrade or even replace that fuse head as it is pretty old. Some of the older ones have asbestos inside, though they would replace that free of charge usually.

Going through the energy supplier to get the meter should enable you to get Western Power to do what they need too.

Side note: If/when an electrician is on site, please ask him to install a blank in that consumer unit to fill the gap that's letting that main switch push right. Can't see what make it is from the thumbnail but a standard metal blank should fit...