Question re 5 amp socket for flatscreen TV use

[KLaf]

Hello all, I am a newbie.

I'm looking for some advice about a wall-mounted 5 amp socket.

In a room in my parents' house there is a wall mounted 5 amp socket, of the three round pin type (I think it's called BS 546). The house was recently rewired and refurbished so the installation is about two years old.

It's pretty high up on a wall in the bedroom and has been installed alongside a TV aerial socket. There's nothing behind the TV aerial socket plate - it's not wired to anything. (I just checked)

My parents had asked for a "flatscreen TV hook up" for their bedroom wall. They just haven't gotten around to getting the flatscreen.

If useful, here's a link to a photo the socket.
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8995/06072010001.jpg
also a picture at the bottom of this post...hopefully.


My question is - is this normal? I've never seen a TV run off such a socket before in this country.

If it's neither normal nor abnormal but depends on the circumstances, what circumstances might cause someone to choose this kind of a socket instead of the usual three pin rectangular (BS 1363 I think it's called).

There are more of the 5 amp round pin sockets in the house, but intended for lighting use only, low on the walls near the ordinary sockets and controllable by lightswitches.


Would greatly appreciate any advice! Thanks a million.

 

[ezzzekiel]

would imagine so as not to allow you to just plug anything in, was obviously fitted for one low appliance only to be connected and as its next to the tv aerial would say thats the giveaway.

 

[JUD]

I'm wondering if it's been taken off the lighting circuit for use with TV only.

So you can only watch TV with the lights on

 

[DiscoDave]

that's waht i was thinking, ^^ , Bit of an odd idea if you ask me!

 

[kw1980]

Ive really only seen 5amp sockets wired in 1.0 or 1.5mm, usually for table lamps switched from the light switch. Just wondered if this is maybe switched from a fused spur on the ring but wired in 1.0 or 1.5mm. But yeah a bit of a strange one.

 

[JUD]

Can't think of any other reason why you would use one of those for a TV.

Especially as most, if not all TVs come with moulded plugs and chopping them off can void the warranty.

 

[martysparky]

Makes me wonder, were these sockets designed specifically for lighting circuits.

ok calcs out ok, designated socket, reasonable care etc

but does that comply wit Intended Use

 

[JUD]

Makes me wonder, were these sockets designed specifically for lighting circuits.

ok calcs out ok, designated socket, reasonable care etc

but does that comply wit Intended Use

I would say their Intended Use is for anything which draws ≤ 5A

 

[martysparky]

but wouldn't this lead to confusion for the home owner who moves in after?

with all the DIY etc them mr joe Die Y changes for 'Normal' socket.

Not on the head of spark who might have included in notes but still could lead the wrong way easily.

 

[Risteard]

I've used them before, but as someone else said generally only for table lamps switched from elsewhere.

 

[KLaf]

Thank you all so much for your replies -

Might I ask one follow on question - it's about taking the wiring for this socket off the lighting circuit.

First, I think this is what was been done, because as Jud said "so you can only watch TV with the lights on"

...and this is exactly so, the TV 5A socket is controlled by the lightswitch beside the door, which also controls the two other 5A sockets in the room which are at the usual low height and have lamps plugged in them.

I plugged a third lamp into the "TV socket" and turned the lightswitch on and off - all three lamps went on and off.

So my question is, why would someone have chosen to do this rather than wiring it from the main ring? I suppose my real question is, would it save time or be easier compared to wiring the socket from the main ring.

Thanks again, enormously appreciate yr replies.

 

[JUD]

Thank you all so much for your replies -

Might I ask one follow on question - it's about taking the wiring for this socket off the lighting circuit.

First, I think this is what was been done, because as Jud said "so you can only watch TV with the lights on"

...and this is exactly so, the TV 5A socket is controlled by the lightswitch beside the door, which also controls the two other 5A sockets in the room which are at the usual low height and have lamps plugged in them.

I plugged a third lamp into the "TV socket" and turned the lightswitch on and off - all three lamps went on and off.

So my question is, why would someone have chosen to do this rather than wiring it from the main ring? I suppose my real question is, would it save time or be easier compared to wiring the socket from the main ring.

Thanks again, enormously appreciate yr replies.

I was only joking aswell.

Oh my Gawd, what a MAD idea

That's got DIY written all over it. Now I'm wondering if they've previously had wall lights and recycled the wiring for the TV.

 

[Spudnik]

It sounds to me like it was possibly an after thought and was wired into the above lighting circuit.

Nothing wrong with it i would say, however not ideal.

 

[Adam W]

I was only joking aswell.

Oh my Gawd, what a MAD idea

That's got DIY written all over it. Now I'm wondering if they've previously had wall lights and recycled the wiring for the TV.

That's what i was thinking - this sounds like it was an ingenious solution to a very specific problem which as with most DIY wiring projects wil have future residents confused and discombobulated, however the OP states the house was recently rewired; by the sound of it this crazy setup was actually intended for the television. Most people use a remote control to turn the telly on and off...

 

[JUD]

I suppose it saves you a job when u go to bed. Turn TV and lights off all in one fell swoop.

 

[ian.settle1]

I've used them before, but as someone else said generally only for table lamps switched from elsewhere.

Have seen 2 Amp sockets used in hotels for bedside/table lamps which are switched from next to bed and at door into room.

 

[Risteard]

Have seen 2 Amp sockets used in hotels for bedside/table lamps which are switched from next to bed and at door into room.

It's a sensible enough application for them, but not sure why you would connect a television into one!

 

[mogga]

Check at the switch and see if there are more than one "Switched live" coming out the switch if so you could split them and switch the "TV" one seperatly or just dont plug table lamps in

 

[UNG]

Makes me wonder, were these sockets designed specifically for lighting circuits.

No they were not, they were in use as normal sockets along with the 15A round pin socket until the 13A socket and ring circuit appeared

Nowadays they are used as non standard socket outlets along with all the other non standard socket outlets that are available

 

[martysparky]

Yes thats what I mean a layman who might have stayed in a few Hotels might well think its for lights.

Otherwise might think, whats this old style / foreign socket I'll replace that with a normal one and then later goes for a Trip, trip in the dark.

Die Y'er did not realize its on a lighting circuit.

I come across a boiler on a light circuit the other week.

I just don't think its a good thing a light circuit should be for lights and a boiler circuit for a boiler and a kitchen circuit for a kitchen and an outbuild circuit for an outbuild.

As, we are supposed to consider the future of the installation should we not make it idiot proof.

 

[Adam W]

I see what you're saying but how far do you go with that?
Personally I prefer not to take a neutral to a switch if I can help it, for fear of the DIYer coming along and using it for a socket (my theory is if it won't work they're less likely to try it) but it seems a shame to say a customer can't have all their lights including table lamps switched from a common location. Perhaps a happy medium would be if round pin sockets came pre-etched with "Lights" or "Lighting Only" - if done professionally there's no reason it has to look messy, then if they choose to go against what their installation is telling them (eg putting a 3A plug on the vacuum cleaner) then that becomes their lookout.

 

[UNG]

As, we are supposed to consider the future of the installation should we not make it idiot proof.

Are you suggesting that accessories are fixed with security screws so they can't be tampered with?

I see what you're saying but how far do you go with that?
Personally I prefer not to take a neutral to a switch if I can help it, for fear of the DIYer coming along and using it for a socket (my theory is if it won't work they're less likely to try it) but it seems a shame to say a customer can't have all their lights including table lamps switched from a common location. Perhaps a happy medium would be if round pin sockets came pre-etched with "Lights" or "Lighting Only" - if done professionally there's no reason it has to look messy, then if they choose to go against what their installation is telling them (eg putting a 3A plug on the vacuum cleaner) then that becomes their lookout.

But if you wire the lighting as three plate then they have an easy place to find a live and neutral for a socket so where do you stop trying to second guess the idiot

With regard to engraved sockets I use a dymo label maker to mark them up just as neat as engraved sockets


The problem is educating B & Q etc that the fiittings they sell should not have plug top transformers that are based on the 13A plug

 

[martysparky]

How far we go with it is a good question.

Licensed Electricians key for accessories Brilliant idea same as license scheme to buy electrical goods
though.

maybe we should all fit security screws in special locations and associated circuits from now on.

They would have to call us rather than Die Y then

 

[Adam W]

But if you wire the lighting as three plate then they have an easy place to find a live and neutral for a socket so where do you stop trying to second guess the idiot

With regard to engraved sockets I use a dymo label maker to mark them up just as neat as engraved sockets


The problem is educating B & Q etc that the fiittings they sell should not have plug top transformers that are based on the 13A plug

If the nearest neutral to the switch is on the ceiling I can't see the DIYer going to the effort of running a cable up to the rose/JB in the ceiling void just to make use of a switchbox that is already chopped into the wall to convert to a socket - to my mind if you're going to go to that much effort to bodge something you may as well do it properly.

I was considering mentioning Dymo (other brands available) label writers because they're a lot more flexible than having to buy the sockets pre-etched; they're fantastic for commercial jobs where you need to mark at the switch or socket which breaker they're on, but again if a householder decides they don't want a label on their socket it's easy enough to peel it off. If the label were etched into the faceplate and the only direct replacements had the same marking because they were marketed as 'lighting sockets' it might help push the message across.

This idea of security screws is interesting but I can't see it working - anyone can replace like for like even in a special location. If it came to it the old accessory could be removed with a hammer, or the customer could just moan about it like they do with those BC3 pendants which were installed to comply with part L for a while but are all but obsolete now.

 

[UNG]

If the nearest neutral to the switch is on the ceiling I can't see the DIYer going to the effort of running a cable up to the rose/JB in the ceiling void just to make use of a switchbox that is already chopped into the wall to convert to a socket - to my mind if you're going to go to that much effort to bodge something you may as well do it properly.

Doesn't stop them putting an upstairs socket on the downstairs lights, could be quite a neat job!!!!!

I was considering mentioning Dymo (other brands available) label writers because they're a lot more flexible than having to buy the sockets pre-etched; they're fantastic for commercial jobs where you need to mark at the switch or socket which breaker they're on, but again if a householder decides they don't want a label on their socket it's easy enough to peel it off. If the label were etched into the faceplate and the only direct replacements had the same marking because they were marketed as 'lighting sockets' it might help push the message across.

Why increase the cost and narrow the use of a "non standard" socket which can be used for different applications. The other option would be to use klik sockets which are more specifically designed for lighting applications

This idea of security screws is interesting but I can't see it working - anyone can replace like for like even in a special location. If it came to it the old accessory could be removed with a hammer, or the customer could just moan about it like they do with those BC3 pendants which were installed to comply with part L for a while but are all but obsolete now.

As with all solutions there are ways round them, that is why proper and accurate certification is needed to protect yourself against the bodge it householders additions after you have left. No matter what your wiring preferences are, someone out there will find a new way to "fix it"

 

[mogga]

Im in agreement ung its like Vandalproof fittings they still get vandalised Schemes still get abused

Canabis is ilegal and hey ppl still take it What we need is better policing of NIC/Napit?Elsca?Select ffs theres that many schemes you could almost make up your own and have it

 

[Adam W]

Doesn't stop them putting an upstairs socket on the downstairs lights, could be quite a neat job!!!!!

It would do because there wouldn't be a neutral in the switch - just a live supply, switched live which goes to the light and 3 wires to the other switch as common and strappers.

Why increase the cost and narrow the use of a "non standard" socket which can be used for different applications. The other option would be to use klik sockets which are more specifically designed for lighting applications

Are there any applications other than lighting? For specific items of equipment (eg freezers) there are plugs and sockets available with the pins 'the wrong way' around, or unfused 15A plugs and sockets for high powered lights as used in stage lighting, but I don't like the idea of putting (as in this example) a television on a lighting circuit controlled by a light switch and relying on the MCB for the lighting circuit.
Kiliks may be fine in a ceiling rose but considerably bigger and more round than a 2A plug.

 

[UNG]

It would do because there wouldn't be a neutral in the switch - just a live supply, switched live which goes to the light and 3 wires to the other switch as common and strappers.

I don't think you read my post properly! It would be very easy to take a cable from a downstairs ceiling rose wired three plate to a skirting mounted socket upstairs

Are there any applications other than lighting? For specific items of equipment (eg freezers) there are plugs and sockets available with the pins 'the wrong way' around, or unfused 15A plugs and sockets for high powered lights as used in stage lighting, but I don't like the idea of putting (as in this example) a television on a lighting circuit controlled by a light switch and relying on the MCB for the lighting circuit.
Kiliks may be fine in a ceiling rose but considerably bigger and more round than a 2A plug.

I agree it is not the best having a TV on a lighting circuit. Why should round pin plugs be solely reserved for lighting when the klik sockets are available

With regard to your comments on the Klik sockets most are smaller than the standard socket plate it might be worth looking here

https://www.electriciansforums.net/attachments/newklikbrochure-pdf.120144/

and appraise yourself of the range available

 

[pineappletree]

Ive got one of those in my flat. Its for lamps only. DO NOT plug your tv into it

 

[Adam W]

It would be very easy to take a cable from a downstairs ceiling rose wired three plate to a skirting mounted socket upstairs

Surely that would involve either lifting floorboards or knowing which way the joists run and fishing a cable through though? My point was that if a novice DIYer couldn't just swap a light switch for a socket with no additional wiring or drilling they probably wouldn't bother; those that would are probably slightly more clued up on electrics.

Why should round pin plugs be solely reserved for lighting when the klik sockets are available

I'm not saying ALL round pin plugs should only be used for lighting, but i think 2A plugs should be; my uncle kept his old 15A sockets in his house until he moved out in the late 90s because he preferred them, presumably because that's what he was always used to.

I have to admit I've neither seen klik sockets (or any other brand) with a square faceplate used or even available until I followed that link - I've only ever seen/used the round conduit rose version or the marshalling boxes, which have always been at high level, above the ceiling in commercial premises.
I think it would be a lot simpler for householders to know 'the little plugs are just for lights', without trying to complicate things by introducing a type of connector which is specific to one manufacturer.

 

[martysparky]

This idea of security screws is interesting but I can't see it working - anyone can replace like for like even in a special location. .

I know more the pity and stupid too.

e.g. Someone buys a house, guess what no PIR, Die Y Botch electrics in special locations etc etc. Then they replace like for like with guess what metal plates.

I seen some one use a hammer today because they couldn't be bothered to use a normal screwdriver on a SFCU connecting a cooker hood. Should have been a Plug top.

 

[blackiel]

If its fed off the lighting circuit it could be intended for a low wattage wall heater,but seeing as theres a coax(tvPoint) next to it,i would imagine its original purpose was for a TV,put in before warranties were knackered by lopping off the moulded plug,when the rewire took place,i should think they wired it in like for like,if its on the lighting circuit you could change the face for a square pin socket without any worries and if its fed from the feed side of the loop in box,you can turn the lights off and still watch the box....gonna look at your photo now.....just broke my golden rule....always check first.................Good Luck

 

[blackiel]

I know more the pity and stupid too.

e.g. Someone buys a house, guess what no PIR, Die Y Botch electrics in special locations etc etc. Then they replace like for like with guess what metal plates.

I seen some one use a hammer today because they couldn't be bothered to use a normal screwdriver on a SFCU connecting a cooker hood. Should have been a Plug top.

Whats wrong with a spur doing the cooker hood mate?...as long as its fused down correctly.....Or have i read you wrong??????????

 

[telectrix]

I would say that this has been done solely because there usually is no ring main in the loft, so to save coming from under the floor and up to the TV point, the supply has been taken from the upstairs lights, the 5A socket as in previous replies being installed so as to prevent connecting inappropriate loads to the lighting circuit. I did this once as the bedroom floor was 8 x 4 interlocking weetabix boards with a glued down carpet and no route up except by chasing expensive wallpaper floor to ceiling. Personally, I can't see anything wrong with it. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.