Quick IT question | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Quick IT question in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Messages
992
Reaction score
126
Location
South east
Greetings.

If on a standard domestic supply the neutral is earthed at the star point of the transformer and this earthing helps to stabilise the voltage
IE it keeps the neutral at 0 volts then with an IT system and an unearthed neutral what would stabilise the voltage?

I don't really know much about this subject but I was taught at college that the star point of the supply transformer was earthed to stabilise the voltage and if that earthing was removed the supply voltage would fluctuate all over the place.

So with an IT system what is used to stabilise the voltage, what stops it going all over the place?

Thanks a lot.
 
Because I know some of them have a high resistance path to earth like an earth rod with a high value resistor in it and I am guessing this is to stabilise the neutral voltage but what about the ones that have no earth at all?

How can you run a system like that?
Surely the voltage would go all over the place.
 
Last edited:
As i understand it, the supply always delivers a potential difference between the two line conductors. Any load uses this PD to operate. As long as the PD is matched to the load, the equipment (load) does not care what the actual voltage reference to earth actually is. E.g how would the load know that the volts ref earth are all over the place.
A generator is a good example i think
 
I was just reading up on this.

Under fault conditions the phase voltage will equal line voltage. The key thing is the power will not trip, even on the phase with the fault.
So you keep your power on in the hospital, life support ticks over.

However you are spot on, voltage is likely to vary so the equipment would be designed for this.
 
It begs the question why bother earthing at all.

Could we do away with it all together?

I mean a properly insulated electrical system would need no earth.

Maybe it's leakage current that makes it necessary to earth I don't know.
 
Some electronics like an E to use as a reference.

TN-C supplies have no earth.

The point of the earth is to prevent any potential difference between a chassis and earth. You are right though, if the item is double insulated, then it generally has no earth.
 
Some electronics like an E to use as a reference.

TN-C supplies have no earth.

The point of the earth is to prevent any potential difference between a chassis and earth. You are right though, if the item is double insulated, then it generally has no earth.


The public electricity supplies have to be referenced to true earth because we humans are referenced to earth, ie. we are standing on it.

For example, you could have our normal PD between L to N @ 230V, but say the N sitting at say 1KV wrt true earth, a 230V lamp would still light OK if it was connected between L and N, but we would be in serious danger of being electrocuted by such a system, as the N would be @ 1kV wrt E, and the L would be sitting at 1230V wrt E, sort of standing on the shoulder of giants so to speak.

The TNC system is still Earthed at the supply N, the clue is in the name T = Terra (Earth) N= neutral C= combined
 
Last edited:
The IT system has in general a relatively high impedance to earth, to restrict the fault current from tripping devices out, as in this situation it is deemed to be less harmful to have an earth fault than to lose the supply (life support systems).

These type of systems are still referenced to earth to stop them floating too high, and they have monitoring systems/devices in place to warn of such faults, this is why this system is always supervised by skilled personel and is not suitable for use public supplies.
 
It begs the question why bother earthing at all.

Could we do away with it all together?

I mean a properly insulated electrical system would need no earth.

Maybe it's leakage current that makes it necessary to earth I don't know.

Why do we need earthing:
The whole of the world may be considered as a vast conductor which is at reference (zero) potential. In the UK we refer to this as 'earth' whilst in the USA it is called 'ground'. People are usually more or less in contact with earth, so if other parts which are open to touch become charged at a different voltage from earth a shock hazard exists. The process of earthing is to connect all these parts which could become charged to the general mass of earth, to provide a path for fault currents and to hold the parts as close as possible to earth potential. In simple theory this will prevent a potential difference between earth and earthed parts, as well as permitting the flow of fault current which will cause the operation of the protective systems.
The standard method of tying the electrical supply system to earth is to make a direct connection between the two. This is usually carried out at the supply transformer, where the neutral conductor (often the star point of a three-phase supply) is connected to earth using an earth electrode or the metal sheath and armouring of a buried cable. Lightning conductor systems must be bonded to the installation earth with a conductor no larger in cross-sectional area than that of the earthing conductor.
The advantages of earthing:
The practice of earthing is widespread, but not all countries in the world use it.
There is certainly a high cost involved, so there must be some advantages. In fact there are two. They are:
1. The whole electrical system is tied to the potential of the general mass of earth and cannot 'float' at another potential. For example, we can be fairly certain that the neutral of our supply is at, or near, zero volts (earth potential) and that the phase conductors of our standard supply differ from earth by 230 volts in the UK.
2. By connecting earth to metalwork not intended to carry current (an extraneous conductive part or an exposed conductive part) by using a protective conductor, a path is provided for fault current which can be detected and, if necessary, broken.
The disadvantages of earthing:
The two important disadvantages are:
1. Cost:- the provision of a complete system of protective conductors, earth electrodes, etc. is very expensive.
2. Possible safety hazard:- It has been argued that complete isolation from earth will prevent shock due to indirect contact because there is no path for the shock current to return to the circuit if the supply earth connection is not made. This approach, however, ignores the presence of leakage resistance to earth (due to imperfect insulation) and phase-to-earth capacitance (the insulation behaves as a dielectric). In many situations the combined impedance due to insulation resistance and earth capacitive reactance is low enough to allow a significant shock current.
However, it does have a roll to play in specialist Non-conductive Locations (BS 7671:2008, Amt 1:2011 418.1) such as testing laboratories where there is continuous supervision to ensure all the requirements are met and maintained.
 
I was going to add also IT systems are also used in earth free environments and/or non conductive locations (see Markies post above) to mitigate the risk.

You could think of the IT system as say a TT with a relatively high Ra, high enough to stop an OCPD from tripping on an earth fault, but with no RCD.

In place of the RCD you would have an alarm or other monitoring devices warning if such a fault became apparent without losing the supply.

This is a rather simplistic view of IT systems as they are usually highly specialised.
 
Last edited:
Is earthing mandatory for every circuit?

Not in all circumstances, there are situations that require total Isolation, eg. some repair centres and the like have an un-earthed isolation transformer on the secondary side. see electrical seperation section 413 BGB.

Again these are a bit specialist, sort of SELV but LV.
 
IT systems are quite common in the iron industry for induction furnaces. Most use DC injection to monitor earth faults. The ones I worked were 660V single phase, up to 4000A. One of the reasons they were earth free is the cables and induction coils were water cooled. The water was pumped through the inside of the cables.
 
La Poste;544442[B said:
]It begs the question why bother earthing at all.[/B]

Could we do away with it all together?

I mean a properly insulated electrical system would need no earth.

Maybe it's leakage current that makes it necessary to earth I don't know.

One good reason would be the double fault situation
Take the average property with exposed conductive parts If there was no earth reference then when the first fault occurred there would be no problem,the part would become live and life would go on,its when the second or double fault happens that things get hot in the kitchen
The sink unit may be live and the toaster decides to fault to its metal housing,dear wife happens to touch both and divorce ensues
W
 

Reply to Quick IT question in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
Hi everyone, If you are looking for reliable EV chargers, check out our top-rated selection at E2GO! ⚡ Please note that all EV Chargers and...
Replies
0
Views
185
  • Article
As the holiday season approaches, PCBWay is thrilled to announce their Christmas & New Year Promotions! Whether you’re an engineer or an...
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • Article
Bloody Hell! Wishing you a speedy recovery and hope (if) anyone else involved is ok. Ivan
    • Friendly
    • Like
Replies
13
Views
1K

Similar threads

Only the N side of the lamp would be at 0v if you went further along the element the voltage would rise.
Replies
14
Views
1K
  • Question
When I was at college doing the 2361 back in the 1980's I still recall to this day the instructor (Mr Wood) saying "Lads I do not want you to...
Replies
10
Views
688

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top