Yep that's what I was thinking!
ELECSA Certification Scheme Regulations Clarification (ELECSA Assesment)
If it's needed for my assesment I'll have to find the pennies. I don't think it is though?
Enjoy your G&T! Nothing better on a Saturday night
If it was me. New WPD isolator. You can then do you bit at your leisure! New 25mm tails & 16mm earth conductor run horizontally through the wall (in flexible conduit) into hallway, then into trunking into ceiling back done in trunking, into RCBO populated CU or High Integrity CU. But then its not my money we're spending. Now that's it, off to the galley. :gru:
Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?
To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?
For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?
Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.
To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?
For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?
Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.
Nope ask away. Yep, except if you do replace tails to 25mm, the earth needs to be 16mm.
Personally I would do what I said in #45. The switch fuse is gonna be a nightmare to terminate into, you can't move it without pulling main fuse, which WPD won't let you do without a bill for £57 + vat (what does their bloke do sit in his van all day, waiting for you to do you bit!), by the way entry into the top of a meter cabinet is a carp. By the by, what was that 100 squids the council wanted, about?
If the current meter tails have enough slack on them to terminate into new CU would you just run a 10mm earth to that connector point and call it a day?
I am going to phone WPD and NPower Monday morning (did try earlier, both closed - unsurprisingly).
The council want £164 inc vat for me to notify, this is an expensive assessment! Costing me a fortune overall
I am going to phone WPD and NPower Monday morning (did try earlier, both closed - unsurprisingly).
The council want £164 inc vat for me to notify, this is an expensive assessment! Costing me a fortune overall
You are overthinking this, if I was to assess the job and you had left the existing tails in place, upgraded earth and bonds to 10.0 I would not find a problem with it. I would definitely recommend separate rcbos though due to the limited amount of circuits.
The assessor is not there to catch you out, he/she will not ask mind bending questions. They may question your methods but be confident in what you have done.
Thank you westward10, I am seriously stressing over this!
If you could take a look at the first picture I posted where the is a connector block on the earth going to cut out and then onto CU, would you just run a 10mm earth to that block (and upgrade with a proper earthing terminal)? Or would you arrange to have it run all the way to cut out? I'm sure I read somewhere that the demarcation point is that earthing terminal.
There will be 4 or 5 circuits:
Current socket ring
New kitchen ring (if I run one)
Cooker
Immersion
Lights
You'd run 5 rcbos?
I'll check the cost :O
EDIT: Just checked cost and MK is very expensive. Could go BG 10 way board and 5x rcbos for £130 or so.
If you could take a look at the first picture I posted where the is a connector block on the earth going to cut out and then onto CU, would you just run a 10mm earth to that block (and upgrade with a proper earthing terminal)? Or would you arrange to have it run all the way to cut out? I'm sure I read somewhere that the demarcation point is that earthing terminal.
There will be 4 or 5 circuits:
Current socket ring
New kitchen ring (if I run one)
Cooker
Immersion
Lights
You'd run 5 rcbos?
I'll check the cost :O
EDIT: Just checked cost and MK is very expensive. Could go BG 10 way board and 5x rcbos for £130 or so.
It looks like 6.0 from the head so that will need changing to 16.0. You can then put a small 4 way block in and reduce to 10.0 as circuit protection is then provided by the 60A fuse, put a Safety Electrical Connection-Do Not Remove notice by it. The only problem here is breaking the seal on the head, some may argue the 6.0 is fine but it is inadequate to support the new bonding. If I was assessing I would definitely question using a dual board on those limited circuits, use separate rcbos, in fact you can say to the assessor you chose this method as it provides better division of circuits, not many people would quote this.
Wylex person myself but would avoid MK at all costs.
Wylex person myself but would avoid MK at all costs.
I would suggest you keep it as simple as possible.
Do not do too much more than is required. Do the things that will make your friends life easier as it is best to do them whilst you are making changes, but no more.
Do not stress about it, it is just not worth it.
Change the terminal block on the earth for an earth block and label the block as a safety electrical connection.
Run a 10mm² earth cable from the block to the board.
Use the existing tails if at all possible, bring the consumer unit down if necessary if they are too short.
An all RCBO board would be nice, but if you are short of cash then stick with the dual RCD, divide the lights and sockets and also the cooker and kitchen ring across RCDs, then if the lights go out you can use lamps in the sockets and if the kitchen sockets go out you can use the socket on the cooker point (if there is one) to run the fridge.
If this is your first assessment then it may be possible to do the work (once you know the date of assessment), have the assessment, pass it and then notify through your new membership without involving BC. Not strictly correct but significantly cheaper and easier and usually acceptable so long as you can notify within 20 days of finishing the work. (but of course the work will not be finished until the scheme assessor has been, as there may be changes required!)
Do not do too much more than is required. Do the things that will make your friends life easier as it is best to do them whilst you are making changes, but no more.
Do not stress about it, it is just not worth it.
Change the terminal block on the earth for an earth block and label the block as a safety electrical connection.
Run a 10mm² earth cable from the block to the board.
Use the existing tails if at all possible, bring the consumer unit down if necessary if they are too short.
An all RCBO board would be nice, but if you are short of cash then stick with the dual RCD, divide the lights and sockets and also the cooker and kitchen ring across RCDs, then if the lights go out you can use lamps in the sockets and if the kitchen sockets go out you can use the socket on the cooker point (if there is one) to run the fridge.
If this is your first assessment then it may be possible to do the work (once you know the date of assessment), have the assessment, pass it and then notify through your new membership without involving BC. Not strictly correct but significantly cheaper and easier and usually acceptable so long as you can notify within 20 days of finishing the work. (but of course the work will not be finished until the scheme assessor has been, as there may be changes required!)
Wylex rcbo's are even more than MK it seems. I do like the idea of RCBO's and so I'll put those in a 10 way consumer unit (the BG variety to save my pennies as i'm fast running out!). It really is the way forward it's just such a shame that they are so expensive compared to MCBs and RCDs.
I'll contact WPD on Monday, are they likely to upgrade that free? I guess not. Perhaps I could just pay them to de-energise, would they then let me access the earth and replace?
They really should let us pull the main fuse!
I'll contact WPD on Monday, are they likely to upgrade that free? I guess not. Perhaps I could just pay them to de-energise, would they then let me access the earth and replace?
They really should let us pull the main fuse!
Wylex rcbo's are even more than MK it seems. I do like the idea of RCBO's and so I'll put those in a 10 way consumer unit (the BG variety to save my pennies as i'm fast running out!). It really is the way forward it's just such a shame that they are so expensive compared to MCBs and RCDs.
I'll contact WPD on Monday, are they likely to upgrade that free? I guess not. Perhaps I could just pay them to de-energise, would they then let me access the earth and replace?
They really should let us pull the main fuse!
I'll contact WPD on Monday, are they likely to upgrade that free? I guess not. Perhaps I could just pay them to de-energise, would they then let me access the earth and replace?
They really should let us pull the main fuse!
Thank you Richard.
So changing the connector block to an earth block and running 10mm from there (through the cavity) would definitely be acceptable for assessment?
I'm sure I can reuse existing tails, so no issue there. That would be £180 saved from DNO.
I am only considering a new kitchen ring as in my opinion the sockets are overloaded. It would be easier and cheaper for me to not put it in but again could assessor pick me up on it? Same thing with cooker isolator above cooker, not my fault it's there but should it be changed during a consumer unit change.
Elecsa themselves told me that normally people don't go through council however I am concerned that if I fail the assessment it is then too late to notify through the council and I'll have broken the law.
Money is very tight at the moment having bought a lot of gear to go it alone however I'll find it somewhere if it's needed in hope of recouping when company is trading.
It really annoys me that there are so many unqualified, unregistered "electricians" out there completing extremely bad/dangerous work yet for me to set up properly is breaking the bank
So changing the connector block to an earth block and running 10mm from there (through the cavity) would definitely be acceptable for assessment?
I'm sure I can reuse existing tails, so no issue there. That would be £180 saved from DNO.
I am only considering a new kitchen ring as in my opinion the sockets are overloaded. It would be easier and cheaper for me to not put it in but again could assessor pick me up on it? Same thing with cooker isolator above cooker, not my fault it's there but should it be changed during a consumer unit change.
Elecsa themselves told me that normally people don't go through council however I am concerned that if I fail the assessment it is then too late to notify through the council and I'll have broken the law.
Money is very tight at the moment having bought a lot of gear to go it alone however I'll find it somewhere if it's needed in hope of recouping when company is trading.
It really annoys me that there are so many unqualified, unregistered "electricians" out there completing extremely bad/dangerous work yet for me to set up properly is breaking the bank
For the earth from the cutout to the MET you can say at the assessment, if asked, that you cannot open the cutout legally and make a change to this cable.
The kitchen sockets as a circuit (without anything plugged into it) is acceptable, if after you have changed the consumer unit the owner plugs lots of things into it then that is their choice. As a circuit there is no problem with it (assuming there are no faults on it!).
You could recommend a new ring or put in the observations on the condition of the existing installation that the kitchen could benefit from a dedicated circuit, but this is not part of your job for the consumer unit change.
The cooker isolator so long as it is not damaged is OK to leave, but again you could mention this in the observations.
For the notification as I say if you fail the assessment then there will be changes you need to make to ensure it is compliant and so the job is not completed and the notification period starts after the job is completed.
The kitchen sockets as a circuit (without anything plugged into it) is acceptable, if after you have changed the consumer unit the owner plugs lots of things into it then that is their choice. As a circuit there is no problem with it (assuming there are no faults on it!).
You could recommend a new ring or put in the observations on the condition of the existing installation that the kitchen could benefit from a dedicated circuit, but this is not part of your job for the consumer unit change.
The cooker isolator so long as it is not damaged is OK to leave, but again you could mention this in the observations.
For the notification as I say if you fail the assessment then there will be changes you need to make to ensure it is compliant and so the job is not completed and the notification period starts after the job is completed.
Richard that is fantastic advice and puts my mind to rest. I'll run 10mm through the cavity (??? Or should I put in trunking?) to the MET next to the main cut out. I'll reuse existing tails and I'll consider RCBOs as the cost isn't much more.
I'll leave the kitchen ring for now (I'll do it for him later when I have a little more cash in the bank!) and I'll leave the cooker switch and make relevant notes on observations.
You've just saved me a lot of money, thank you very much
Is it worth a ring to the DNO to see if they will upgrade their earth connection free as it's only 6mm?
I'll leave the kitchen ring for now (I'll do it for him later when I have a little more cash in the bank!) and I'll leave the cooker switch and make relevant notes on observations.
You've just saved me a lot of money, thank you very much
Is it worth a ring to the DNO to see if they will upgrade their earth connection free as it's only 6mm?
Don't pay the BC anything. The schemes schemes us so scheme the BC. The way it goes, you apply to a scheme, they want to see some work to assess, in this instance CU change. Scheme come and assess, pass you long as you are not going to kill anyone and the cheque don't bounce, then approve you to their scheme and then you notify BC via their web site. Chicken & egg but that's where we are. Don't pay the BC anymore monet than they deserve. Hopefully makes senses few G&T's in !
Seeing the meter box is recessed it is probably almost filling the cavity anyway, though it is not ideal the cable has to cross the cavity at some point, whether it does it diagonally or straight across is fairly immaterial and since it will be going upward to the CU any water that might (how)?) get in will drain away from the inside wall.
You can try and ring the DNO and ask about the earth being undersized but I would not hold out much hope, but worth a try. BE prepared to stay on hold for a while and have all the details to hand and be prepared for them to only want to talk to the customer (more likely for the supplier).
The 6mm would likely only be undersized because it is a TNCS (PME) supply and so the earth is also a bonding conductor and so needs to be a minimum of 10mm².
As just an earth it would probably meet the adiabatic equation requirements, but not the bonding limits.
You can try and ring the DNO and ask about the earth being undersized but I would not hold out much hope, but worth a try. BE prepared to stay on hold for a while and have all the details to hand and be prepared for them to only want to talk to the customer (more likely for the supplier).
The 6mm would likely only be undersized because it is a TNCS (PME) supply and so the earth is also a bonding conductor and so needs to be a minimum of 10mm².
As just an earth it would probably meet the adiabatic equation requirements, but not the bonding limits.
Agree but an assessor will use rule of thumb that the earthing conductor to the MET should be 16.0, then 10.0 to the CU as the circuit protection is provided by the 60A fuse.
The earthing conductor from cut out to MET is only required to be 16mm² when using the selection table and it is stated in the regulations that this is likely to provide oversized conductors, therefore using the adiabatic equation (in this case subject to the bonding requirements as well) is a better and more comprehensive design.
There is no decrease applicable from MET to CU because of the size of the switch fuse as it is the same size (probably) as the cut out fuse and in both cases would be overidden by the bonding requirements.
There is no decrease applicable from MET to CU because of the size of the switch fuse as it is the same size (probably) as the cut out fuse and in both cases would be overidden by the bonding requirements.
Not disagreeing with you Richard at all just that the OP would need to be confident if the assessor queried why it wasn't 16.0, some of them only see things in black and white. Either way it needs changing as it is undersized to support the new bonding.
I'm happy to put 10mm and will justify if they ask with the information you've provided above and a little more research.
The question I would be stuck answering is if he notices I've run 10mm to the MET but nit from there to the cut out. As yy say above richard this is probably not acceptable for the bonding.
Would he accept me saying I can't legally touch beyond the MET. Could he not retort then you should have paid DNO to upgrade it?
What I am doing us providing a significant improvement in safety (no rcd currently). I'd be leaving the installation in a much better state than currently. Is it really fair for them to expect people to pay silly amounts of money (dno) to improve overall safety!
The question I would be stuck answering is if he notices I've run 10mm to the MET but nit from there to the cut out. As yy say above richard this is probably not acceptable for the bonding.
Would he accept me saying I can't legally touch beyond the MET. Could he not retort then you should have paid DNO to upgrade it?
What I am doing us providing a significant improvement in safety (no rcd currently). I'd be leaving the installation in a much better state than currently. Is it really fair for them to expect people to pay silly amounts of money (dno) to improve overall safety!
The earth from the head definitely needs changing, why change bonding if the earth at source is 6.0.
Ok, so I'll contact DNO Monday and ask how much to upgrade earth at cut out and arrange for it to be done.
Assessment is 8th November so plenty of time for them to turn up.
I'll proceed with changing the broken switches and pendant in bathroom and once DNO have done their part i'll proceed with the board change - RCBOs most likely for 4 circuits (as not going to put a ring in kitchen to save on costs). 4 rcbos and a board will cost same as fully populated split load board anyway.
I'll re-use old tails and make observations on the cert about the cooker isolator and limited sockets in kitchen.
All that sound like a pass in theory? I'm much less stressed now. This forum is incredibly useful
Assessment is 8th November so plenty of time for them to turn up.
I'll proceed with changing the broken switches and pendant in bathroom and once DNO have done their part i'll proceed with the board change - RCBOs most likely for 4 circuits (as not going to put a ring in kitchen to save on costs). 4 rcbos and a board will cost same as fully populated split load board anyway.
I'll re-use old tails and make observations on the cert about the cooker isolator and limited sockets in kitchen.
All that sound like a pass in theory?
I'm much less stressed now. This forum is incredibly useful
The situation is usually that the DNO will provide an earth cable/ connection from the cut out to the MET.
The size of this cable is up to the DNO to ascertain if it is suitable.
The DNO are responsible for the maintenance of the earth connection from the incoming supply.
Looking at the arrangement you have this was probably originally from the cut out to the earth bar of the CU.
For some reason the earth has been cut and joined in a terminal block in the meter cabinet.
This could move the position of the MET from the CU to the terminal block, which is what has been suggested here by providing an earth block and labelling in the meter cabinet.
The DNO would therefore be responsible for the cable to the earth block, which is why I said it is worth asking them, as they should not charge you for this.
However since they provided the PME and did not provide a 10mm² earth at the time, why not?
Will they be keen to expend their money on a change they did not deem necessary at the time?
Effectively that piece of cable is outside the remit of BS7671 and is under the ESQCR instead.
I do not think, but do not know that, the ESQCR would permit this size of cable but it does seem odd they left it at that size.
Overall it sounds like you have a plan in place and are making every effort to comply and have justification for your choices, which is what the assessor will be looking for.
Roll on 8th November!
The size of this cable is up to the DNO to ascertain if it is suitable.
The DNO are responsible for the maintenance of the earth connection from the incoming supply.
Looking at the arrangement you have this was probably originally from the cut out to the earth bar of the CU.
For some reason the earth has been cut and joined in a terminal block in the meter cabinet.
This could move the position of the MET from the CU to the terminal block, which is what has been suggested here by providing an earth block and labelling in the meter cabinet.
The DNO would therefore be responsible for the cable to the earth block, which is why I said it is worth asking them, as they should not charge you for this.
However since they provided the PME and did not provide a 10mm² earth at the time, why not?
Will they be keen to expend their money on a change they did not deem necessary at the time?
Effectively that piece of cable is outside the remit of BS7671 and is under the ESQCR instead.
I do not think, but do not know that, the ESQCR would permit this size of cable but it does seem odd they left it at that size.
Overall it sounds like you have a plan in place and are making every effort to comply and have justification for your choices, which is what the assessor will be looking for.
Roll on 8th November!
For Western Power it is a condition of pme supply that the earthing conductor is 16mm and the bonding 10mm. However not something that they rigourously enforce!
Perhaps a call to the dno advising that the fuse needs resealing and that they have not removed the knockout over the pme earthing terminal in the cutout will provide a no cost solution to your concerns. If they are already in attendance to re-seal it is barely any extra effort to remove the knockout
Perhaps a call to the dno advising that the fuse needs resealing and that they have not removed the knockout over the pme earthing terminal in the cutout will provide a no cost solution to your concerns. If they are already in attendance to re-seal it is barely any extra effort to remove the knockout
Seems you have a plan in place, so I'll try not to muddy the waters now, but I have a couple of points.
MK do a populated 12 way CU, http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-sentry-100a-12-way-main-switch-metal-consumer-unit-6-x-rcbos/8318p for £132. Don't think Wylex sell an RCBO populated one? Check the MK RCBO's have 'Honeywell' on the front, or you might have some defective devices.
When you ring WP for them to come and have a look, they might give you a 5 week lead time, unless you say their main earth looks a bit dodgy, and they might make it an emergency and come the same day
So factor that with you assessment date, don't try rush things.
Do some preliminary work; find the route of your existing tails, see if you have any slack cable, for when you do install your new CU. I suspect they will appear from the cavity into the ceiling void, and then run down to the existing CU. As someone suggested a while back, do some test on your existing install to make sure you haven't any nightmares waiting to spoil the party.
MK do a populated 12 way CU, http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-sentry-100a-12-way-main-switch-metal-consumer-unit-6-x-rcbos/8318p for £132. Don't think Wylex sell an RCBO populated one? Check the MK RCBO's have 'Honeywell' on the front, or you might have some defective devices.
When you ring WP for them to come and have a look, they might give you a 5 week lead time, unless you say their main earth looks a bit dodgy, and they might make it an emergency and come the same day
So factor that with you assessment date, don't try rush things. Do some preliminary work; find the route of your existing tails, see if you have any slack cable, for when you do install your new CU. I suspect they will appear from the cavity into the ceiling void, and then run down to the existing CU. As someone suggested a while back, do some test on your existing install to make sure you haven't any nightmares waiting to spoil the party.
Mhar, I really don't mind putting a 16mm earth so long as I can leave the existing tails?
Midwest thank you for the link to that board. I like the look of mk and so I'll go with that one. It'll leave 2 spare rcbos as well for the same price as buying BG separately.
My assessment is 6 weeks Tuesday -sounds far off but I'm sure it'll creep up on me. Especially as I have a 2 week holiday between. If the dno want 5 weeks to sort it then it fits in fine. I'll get all preliminary work completed and issue MWCs for the light changes and switch changes (not absolutely necessary but some more paperwork to show assessor).
I just hope that WP don't charge for changing their inadequate earthing arrangement!
Midwest thank you for the link to that board. I like the look of mk and so I'll go with that one. It'll leave 2 spare rcbos as well for the same price as buying BG separately.
My assessment is 6 weeks Tuesday -sounds far off but I'm sure it'll creep up on me. Especially as I have a 2 week holiday between. If the dno want 5 weeks to sort it then it fits in fine. I'll get all preliminary work completed and issue MWCs for the light changes and switch changes (not absolutely necessary but some more paperwork to show assessor).
I just hope that WP don't charge for changing their inadequate earthing arrangement!
Don't make more work for yourself. Start the EIC (for the CU), include your other works in that. Show your assessor the EIC. When you've passed your assessment, and got your shiny badge, bin the paper EIC and use the Elecsa on-line forms to complete a new EIC. Then you can notify the BC through Elecsa when finalising your Elecsa EIC. Save a few trees
Thought i'd leave an update regarding this. I phoned WPD this morning and told them their earth was inadequate, being 6mm on PME.
I was ready to fight to get a free upgrade however there was no need. The guy on phone said that's too small I'll get someone out to you today to assess.
40 Minutes later a chap turned up who looked at it and said definitely needed upgrading and he'll have it scheduled for tomorrow or Wednesday.
Result
I was ready to fight to get a free upgrade however there was no need. The guy on phone said that's too small I'll get someone out to you today to assess.
40 Minutes later a chap turned up who looked at it and said definitely needed upgrading and he'll have it scheduled for tomorrow or Wednesday.
Result
Good start hope the rest is plain sailing also.Thought i'd leave an update regarding this. I phoned WPD this morning and told them their earth was inadequate, being 6mm on PME.
I was ready to fight to get a free upgrade however there was no need. The guy on phone said that's too small I'll get someone out to you today to assess.
40 Minutes later a chap turned up who looked at it and said definitely needed upgrading and he'll have it scheduled for tomorrow or Wednesday.
Result
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