Regulations stating CU must be upgraded (or not)

[ringer]

College lecturer told us that if any work is done an an installation with e.g. rewireables or 16th Ed board , then the CU must be upgraded. This in not what I have come to understand, but trawling through the BRB I cannot find specific regulations to confirm or deny this. I thought you can leave the old CU as is, as long as it complied with the regs at the time it was installed and you do not leave it less safe than it was before you started working on it. E.g. job with rewireable CU needs new shower circuit - leave rewireable CU as is, but add a separate CU with a RCD for the shower. Another e.g. would be adding a light in the loft to existing upstairs light circuit (non RCD protected) in a 16th Ed board - not sure here what you can/cannot do. Of course you should always suggest to customer to upgrade the CU, but in the real world they would not want to fork out the extra cash. Can anyone quote me regulation numbers that apply?

 

[Johno]

Generally when a rewire is needed so is a CU uprade (I have never came across anything other).

As for additions, etc, it is for YOU to make sure that the work you do complies with current regs, eg, if you are installing a new shower circuit then you could install a separate RCD to protect your circuit, but would it be more value for money (for the customer) to get the board changed at the same time.

I would try and explain this in very simple terms, and give them 2 prices= 1 with minimum work required and 2= the full monty.


As for the light in the loft, as long as the cable is surface mounted then there is no need RCD protect.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Saying that there are regulations dictating that CU's must be upgraded is just incompetence on behalf of your tutor. I would never tell my guys rubbish like that.

I went through earthing & bonding with them tonight and this subject kept coming up. The conclusion is that there are always options to be considered, however, changing of a consumer does result as a more affordable approach to making a lot of existing installations comply, in comparison to all the other minor works that may be needed.

 

[Sintra]

College lecturer told us that if any work is done an an installation with e.g. rewireables or 16th Ed board , then the CU must be upgraded. This in not what I have come to understand, but trawling through the BRB I cannot find specific regulations to confirm or deny this. I thought you can leave the old CU as is, as long as it complied with the regs at the time it was installed and you do not leave it less safe than it was before you started working on it. E.g. job with rewireable CU needs new shower circuit - leave rewireable CU as is, but add a separate CU with a RCD for the shower. Another e.g. would be adding a light in the loft to existing upstairs light circuit (non RCD protected) in a 16th Ed board - not sure here what you can/cannot do. Of course you should always suggest to customer to upgrade the CU, but in the real world they would not want to fork out the extra cash. Can anyone quote me regulation numbers that apply?

There is no regulation as BS 3036 is still an acceptable form of overcurrent protection in the brb.

Any addition or alteration though has to comply to the current version with regards to additional protection if required. The example you gave for the shower is fine and as for the light in the loft you can install an RCD protected FCU for buried cables or if cables are surface or in mechanical protection then the circuit can be extended and the BS 3036 left as the overcurrent protection. Provided you are below the max permissible Zs.

 

[Des 56]

The lecturer,if you have not mis quoted his opinions is mis guided to say the least

You could install on your next rewire an installation that was made up of rewireable fuses and rcds

There is no reason to replace rewireable fuseboards just because they are old hat

With any board and the protection that is used, it has to meet the values prescribed,and the make up of the unit should allow for discrimination

If you decide that fuses are your choice, then there is nothing other than compliance to stop that choice


It is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs we have,when our people in our industry are making the customers fearfull of things that are not "the now",they may very well be safe, and sometimes even comply with the modern standard

 

[Sintra]

Have to agree Des too much bad guidance going on by both sparks and lecturers.

 

[Phil]

the trouble is in some colleges the tutors not all but some have not done anything in the trade for a few years so they can get a little left behind. i have seen both good and bad in the classrooms and some that talk absolute nonsense. we were told at college by one of the tutors it would be acceptable to spur of a spur and then again if we wanted too. ? and no he didn`t mean with an fcu in between either. another one told us running cables in any circumstance horizontally was illegal?

 

[Johno]

Has anyone ever done a rewire (domestic) and not changed the board?

 

[Phil]

never, always a board change for me if there is a complete re-wire

 

[Johno]

BTW am not defending the idiots that teach us the regs at college, am talking real life.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

How many times do we hear someone say..."I was told my fuseboard is illegal".....?

 

[jpmiff]

If the Zs values of the circuit meet the requirements in the BRB for the appropiate cicuit protection device then there is no problem!

 

[Risteard]

Don't forget derating factor of 0.725 for BS 3036 rewireable fuses.

 

[Spudnik]

How many times do we hear someone say..."I was told my fuseboard is illegal".....?

Believe it or not, had one yesterday.

Going to see the client tonight.

 

[nickblake]

the only time i will change a rewirable board ,is when it has the little wooden frame attached to the bakalite front ,as i feel this is a deviation ,due to the fact that if a fault developes within the board they could catch fire ,and these old board or of course if a board is faulty , defective main switch ,poor condition , etc ,, but i do have to admit i hate the things ,and will replace one if asked at a drop of a hat

 

[DurhamSparky]

added plenty of loft lights in to propertys that have rewirable stuff.. if its safe then why change it! i do try and get customer to get push in MCBs if they have rewirable boards as its easier for them! if i add sockets in loft i just use a rcd Spur unit to comply with my work..! some times leaving a old box in is better than ripping it out! especiaLLy when half the kitchen unit is built around it! lol...

 

[sjm]

the only time i will change a rewirable board ,is when it has the little wooden frame attached to the bakalite front ,as i feel this is a deviation ,due to the fact that if a fault developes within the board they could catch fire ,and these old board or of course if a board is faulty , defective main switch ,poor condition , etc ,, but i do have to admit i hate the things ,and will replace one if asked at a drop of a hat

According to my NICEIC assesor on my last assesment if the wooden unit has the brown plastic backing plate which is a fire barrier then it still complies with current requirements.

 

[nickblake]

According to my NICEIC assesor on my last assesment if the wooden unit has the brown plastic backing plate which is a fire barrier then it still complies with current requirements.

think the nic should get continuity then because it was a NIC inspector that told me that they didnt comply ,

 

[sjm]

Just goes to show that they're no better than us doesn't it. Seems the more electricians you ask a question of the more different answers you get. However it would be nice if those that inspect us could be consistent.

 

[telectrix]

in my area lot of houses have been rewired in 70's by council. all surface trunking and old fuseboards left in. what a mess!

 

[Des 56]

in my area lot of houses have been rewired in 70's by council. all surface trunking and old fuseboards left in. what a mess!

In my area we still plug the electric iron into the light adaptor
We couldn't be so lucky as to have a proper fuse board you know

 

[nickblake]

i can remember going to my granfathesr house he had those adaptors ever where , there were wires all over the place , he did have 6 little wooden boxes with a fuse in each , it was a death trap ,lead cable in some areas and loads of rubber which disintegrated when you touched it , oh and to top it off the polarity was the wrong way round been like that since the house was build in the early 30's

 

[Des 56]

i can remember going to my granfathesr house he had those adaptors ever where , there were wires all over the place , he did have 6 little wooden boxes with a fuse in each , it was a death trap ,lead cable in some areas and loads of rubber which disintegrated when you touched it , oh and to top it off the polarity was the wrong way round been like that since the house was build in the early 30's

Grandad was possibly blissfully unaware and lived to a ripe old age I hope

 

[nickblake]

oh yes he was ,as most old people were and still are, if it works its ok ,there was never the what if ... in those days

 

[robsparky1975]

A local spark,advertised recently in weekly ad,he had pics of the old style 3036 boards,and said in his ad "if you have one of these they are a potential fire hazard" replace immediately,talk about scaremongering,i have seen a 30s complete wooden board with virs going in,so no earth,bonding etc,but the owner must have been in her 90s,so a bit difficult for her to understand what i was talking about,hence i could not alter anything.

 

[nickblake]

the local spark was correct the old 3036 wooden framed boards can be a fire hazard , this is where our job does get complicated how do you tell an elderly lady that it needs replacing and how do you do it to stop scaring her ,its finding the happy medium

 

[EasT]

A local spark,advertised recently in weekly ad,he had pics of the old style 3036 boards,and said in his ad "if you have one of these they are a potential fire hazard" replace immediately,talk about scaremongering,i have seen a 30s complete wooden board with virs going in,so no earth,bonding etc,but the owner must have been in her 90s,so a bit difficult for her to understand what i was talking about,hence i could not alter anything.

Yes, as we get older we resist change. Worked OK 'till now. My F-I-L lives 20 miles away. He is 85 and lives on his own in a very rural location. He has a 45 year old solid fuel boiler. I have tried for 12 months to suggest he changes to oil or gas as if he has problems with his joints he will find the solid fuel difficult - particularly going outside to the coal shed in 4 inches of snow!!

He agrees. He has all the info. He has a contact for a good heating installer. Money is not tight. Progress to date. Nil.

 

[Ohmyword]

i can remember going to my granfathesr house he had those adaptors ever where , there were wires all over the place , he did have 6 little wooden boxes with a fuse in each , it was a death trap ,lead cable in some areas and loads of rubber which disintegrated when you touched it , oh and to top it off the polarity was the wrong way round been like that since the house was build in the early 30's

I'm 58 - been in the trade since I was 15. I've seen plenty of these houses (in Cornwall).

Talking of "wrong polarity" - I recently did some work in a relatively new shopping "complex" which was a long building, one side of an alley-way, off a main street of a large town.
The building had been separated into individual "units" with their own mains supply.
"Never take anything for granted in this game!" possibly saved my life (and the lives of the builders and perhaps the new occupants).
The whole installation was connected "cross-polarity" by the installer of the mains tails into the RCD protected C.U.
Obviously NO LIVE tests could have been carried out at all on the original installation because this fault would have showed up as soon as one plugged a test machine into the wiring.

 

[telectrix]

he can get a government grant fot this, google "warmfront". new heating system for free.

 

[Ohmyword]

Yes, as we get older we resist change. Worked OK 'till now. My F-I-L lives 20 miles away. He is 85 and lives on his own in a very rural location. He has a 45 year old solid fuel boiler. I have tried for 12 months to suggest he changes to oil or gas as if he has problems with his joints he will find the solid fuel difficult - particularly going outside to the coal shed in 4 inches of snow!!

He agrees. He has all the info. He has a contact for a good heating installer. Money is not tight. Progress to date. Nil.

telectrix is correct EasT; my daughter has recently had a full gas central heating system installed in the property she rents (in agreement with her landlord) and it cost her NOTHING.
I believe the landlord made a £50 -£100 contribution. The only stipulation on the agreement was that the landlord could not increase the rent on the property for 24 months from the installation date.

 

[telectrix]

it's a non- means tested grant for anyone on benefit, pension etc. covers insulation as well. all this scaremongering about global warming, anyone noticed it's getting colder each year? all this heat being retained in dwellings