UK Rented sector smoke alarms regs

[Bob Geldoff1234]

Does anyone know what the new rules for England are for the rented sector smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors?
Can they be battery powered ie one in the hall and one on the landing ?
Again can the carbon monoxide detector be battery powered?
Does the kitchen have to have a heat detector?

Any resource that I can be pointed to would be great.
Thanks

 

[LukeD]

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (Amendment) Regulations 2022: guidance for landlords and tenants

www.gov.uk

 

[loz2754]

Here's the condensed version-

A smoke alarm on each floor and a CO alarm in rooms containing a fuel burning appliance (except gas cookers).
No requirement for alarms to be mains powered or for interlinking.

 

[littlespark]

Aren’t they becoming in line with the Scottish rules? Ie Every household, not just rented, which I thought would already be in place before now?

If it is the same, you’re going to get mad rush, shortages of parts, complaints that it’s too expensive and the government not actually checking who’s had it done.

 

[LukeD]

II would expect it to be a legal requirement in every single dwelling . The idea of not having alarms is madness

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

Thanks guys for the info.There is a job that I have to price where the fire brigade have been round.It's a shop below and a rented flat above.They have said they want mains powered interlinked smoke alarms in every room upstairs and downstairs. This is a total of 13 detectors. I can understand one at the top of the rented stairs but they want ones in the lounge,bedrooms,corridors etc.
The flat has a very bad tenant in who doesn't want to allow access so it's a pig of a job.
Do the fire brigade have any power to enforce this request?
There are battery powered smokes through-out the shop and upstairs already but they aren't interlinked.

 

[littlespark]

I’ve read the link, and to be honest, it’s even more ‘woolly’ than the Scottish side.

I didn’t see whether it said they had to be interlinked, but it’s daft not to.


For the OP situation with a flat above a shop where the tenant doesn’t give access… the govt page does say that if all reasonable steps have been made to arrange access, and it’s all documented…. Then that’s all that can be done.

 

[snowhead]

Do the fire brigade have any power to enforce this request?

In what form have the / Fire Brigade notified the owner /occupiers about the alarms, was it just verbal or in writing?
If in writing it should say under what power they are demanding the installation of them.

I don't believe they have the power anymore.

The best they could ask for is to meet the current legal requirement.

If it is in writing or if the owner contacts the Fire Brigade and asks for conformation and they quote Legislation, then please post what it is as it must be new, maybe under the high rise legislation revisions and it's likely to affect 10's of thousands of other businesses with flats over.

 

[timhoward]

I could understand building regs making stipulations.
I could understand the fire brigade inspecting a current setup and declaring it compliant, broadly compliant, or non compliant , with a report. But AFAIK since 2005 FRA the fire brigade are no longer judge, jury and executioner.

Is it a fast food / chip shop or something - the request sounds rather over the top unless there are higher risks.
(If 13 detectors are required I'd suggest a proper fire alarm with a panel is fitted instead, with zones for shop and flat. Can you imagine pressing hush on 13 devices....!)

 

[UNG]

Aren’t they becoming in line with the Scottish rules? Ie Every household, not just rented, which I thought would already be in place before now?

If it is the same, you’re going to get mad rush, shortages of parts, complaints that it’s too expensive and the government not actually checking who’s had it done.

Tried to buy an AICO battery CO detector from my wholesaler last week and was told they have an order in with Aico and the expected delivery is quoted as 70 days from order so it would be January 2023 had a look round some of the other wholesalers and the picture is much the same

In what form have the / Fire Brigade notified the owner /occupiers about the alarms, was it just verbal or in writing?
If in writing it should say under what power they are demanding the installation of them.

I don't believe they have the power anymore.

The best they could ask for is to meet the current legal requirement.

If it is in writing or if the owner contacts the Fire Brigade and asks for conformation and they quote Legislation, then please post what it is as it must be new, maybe under the high rise legislation revisions and it's likely to affect 10's of thousands of other businesses with flats over.

They are probably using the 2005 RRO legislation which gives them enforcement powers

I could understand building regs making stipulations.
I could understand the fire brigade inspecting a current setup and declaring it compliant, broadly compliant, or non compliant , with a report. But AFAIK since 2005 FRA the fire brigade are no longer judge, jury and executioner.

Is it a fast food / chip shop or something - the request sounds rather over the top unless there are higher risks.
(If 13 detectors are required I'd suggest a proper fire alarm with a panel is fitted instead, with zones for shop and flat. Can you imagine pressing hush on 13 devices....!)

I attended a Shropshire fire brigade session some years ago regarding the 2005 RRO legislation and Fire Risk Assessments and one of the opening comments was that the role of the fire brigade had turned from gamekeeper to poacher and their licencing role had been replaced by an enforcement role
This is why they are reluctant to make any fire safety recommendations now as it could compromise their enforcement role

 

[timhoward]

I attended a Shropshire fire brigade session some years ago regarding the 2005 RRO legislation and Fire Risk Assessments and one of the opening comments was that the role of the fire brigade had turned from gamekeeper to poacher and their licencing role had been replaced by an enforcement role
This is why they are reluctant to make any fire safety recommendations now as it could compromise their enforcement role

Sure. But it's all still stitched up - it's amazing how often to obtain a compliant rating they reject a risk assessment that's been prepared in line with the approved publications, and want a 'professional' risk assessment, and here's a list of people we suggest you approach. The vast majority seem to be early-retired station officers..... jobs for the boys...!

 

[UNG]

Sure. But it's all still stitched up - it's amazing how often to obtain a compliant rating they reject a risk assessment that's been prepared in line with the approved publications, and want a 'professional' risk assessment, and here's a list of people we suggest you approach. The vast majority seem to be early-retired station officers..... jobs for the boys...!

I have to agree with you but even retired fire officers can get it wrong as can those inspecting establishments for compliance

I queried the installation of 90°C heat detectors with a fire officer these detectors were fitted in bedrooms in a hotel the fire officers response was that due to steam from the shower in the bathroom migrating into the room a lower temp detector may false alarm, I pointed out that the "steam" was actually condensing water vapour and as skin on the human body starts to blister at around 59°C the shower could never produce steam without seriously injuring someone

The issue is that fire safety is down to the opinion of the individual assessing the needs and meeting the requirements laid down in the legislatiion and any 2 people may have differing opinions

One I heard of a little while ago was a new build stadium where on a fire alarm activation all the lifts were sent to the ground floor as per the risk assessment during the commissioning someone asked what if the fire was on the ground floor where you would exit the lift(s), I believe the cause and effect was hastily rewritten

 

[pirate]

As @UNG said, there can be long delays in obtaining alarms, especially from Aico. I had this problem when the new Scottish regs came into play, and I had placed orders with 2 suppliers and finally got what I needed, plus a few extras for stock, after about 3 months. Aico must have known there would be a rush, but stocks were very low. Covid didn't help, and supply chain problems and possibly ships stuck in that canal acerbated the problem. After installing the alarms for the jobs I had on at the time, enquiries dried up and I decided not to do any more, as having stock on hand wasn't ideal. A kind member on here bought my surplus stock.
I have had enquiries locally since then, but my rule now is that the client orders the units and I install when they arrive.
I do have 3 Kidde CO alarms, model K5DCO on the shelf (not suitable for Scotland) so if anyone wants these, let me know.