Rip off and disgusting service

[Cider]

Went to a customer the other day who had pv installed last summer................................£11,000 for 6 panels.

Family elderly friend had free system installed by cleantech in January and scaffold still not down despite endless phone calls to company and a registered letter.
All the rubbish was on her lawn for a month before it was removed.
Now causing much stress.

 

[Blueflash]

I am not condoning their work but the word FREE has great weight in the quality of a job! It cost the installer to install that job and they won’t get any payback for many years to come. Coupled with that a large FIT’s drop and you will get bad work due to the rush to meet the deadline!
We install and remove everything that was not there before, including nails, scaffold and any debris from working there.

 

[Guest123]

Offer it to some local 'scrappy' for £100.

 

[sambotc]

I've worked (contractor) for a rent a roof crowd and scaffold still being up was one of the biggest complaints. Funnily enough I've heard a few customers say they have phoned the scaffold companies up saying if its not gone within 24hrs it's being weighed in. Needless to say the following day it was gone!

 

[jupestar]

to be fair about the rubbish when we got our MCS the inspector told us we should leave all boxes and parcels for the customer to deal with, as they are buying the equipment it belongs to them. never been cormfortable with this and generally common sense overrides this. But yeah we were told not to take it away.

 

[Glen Powell]

to be fair about the rubbish when we got our MCS the inspector told us we should leave all boxes and parcels for the customer to deal with, as they are buying the equipment it belongs to them. never been cormfortable with this and generally common sense overrides this. But yeah we were told not to take it away.

You must also be aware you must have a permit to carry waste in a commercial vehicle, it costs next to nothing if I remember correctly, however if you are caught with rubbish on your vehicle you could be fined. Get the permit and a means of disposing of said waste be it a skip at your lockup or an agreement at the local landfill.

 

[moggy1968]

Waste Carriers License? It costs a hell of a lot actually!! This was designed for the waste disposal industry to monitor and maintain standards. It is now being used and abused by councils to generate more income. Originally it was designed to reduce fly tipping but in fact the missuse of the requirement by councils is more likely to increase fly tipping.

scaffolding is a nightmare. I have tried 4 different companies, every one has been rubbish. They don't turn up when they say they will and take ages to take it all down again. with 2 of the companies I have had to threaten that if it isn't removed within 2 days I'll remove it and dispose of it.

 

[Gavin A]

it's not waste, it's padding to stop the tools clattering about.

 

[Megavolt]

Waste Carriers License? It costs a hell of a lot actually!! This was designed for the waste disposal industry to monitor and maintain standards. It is now being used and abused by councils to generate more income. Originally it was designed to reduce fly tipping but in fact the missuse of the requirement by councils is more likely to increase fly tipping.

scaffolding is a nightmare. I have tried 4 different companies, every one has been rubbish. They don't turn up when they say they will and take ages to take it all down again. with 2 of the companies I have had to threaten that if it isn't removed within 2 days I'll remove it and dispose of it.

Waste carriers license are cheap and not worth not having you need one to carry scrap. Just renewed mine £105 for 3 years

 

[Richard Burns]

If you are carrying your own waste from your operations you do not need a waste carriers licence and your van can be considered a mobile site and attached to your base of operations. You only need a waste carriers licence when you are carrying someone else's waste. Even though your customer has bought the materials, the waste generated is from your businesses operations and can be considered your waste.
Taking your waste from your base of operations to a disposal site / recycling company, etc. does not need a waste carriers licence, though you should still complete the appropriate waste transfer documentation.

 

[moggy1968]

thats not how everyone I have discussed it with sees it, and I have heard there have been procecutions of tradesmen.

Elrick - you and me obviously have different ideas of what constitues expensive. £105 for a piece of paper that proves nothing and achieves nothing except filling the councils coffers some more sounds expensive to me.

 

[BruceB]

Richard Burns, You may well have a valid interpretation of the law, but that is not how I understand it is currently interpreted by the EA, Councils and others. Have you got any reference to support your view?
Regards
Bruce

 

[Richard Burns]

Richard Burns, You may well have a valid interpretation of the law, but that is not how I understand it is currently interpreted by the EA, Councils and others. Have you got any reference to support your view?
Regards
Bruce

I think I stand to be corrected having reread the EA stance on carriers.
My understanding may be slightly out of date and it looks as if the regulations will change in 2013.
I also missed the change to the controlled waste regs in 1992, which in terms of normal waste management would not apply expect in very specific cases (one of which is being an electrician).

The following references explain my position:
The Controlled Waste (Registration of Carriers and Seizure of Vehicles) Regulations 1991
Exemption from registration
2.—(1) The following persons shall not be required for the purposes of section1 of the 1989 Act to be registered carriers of controlled waste—
(b) the producer of the controlled waste in question except where it is building or demolition waste;
(2) In this regulation—
"building or demolition waste" means waste arising from works of construction or demolition, including waste arising from work preparatory thereto;
In my view this did not mean alteration however...
The Controlled Waste Regulations 1992
“construction” includes improvement, repair or alteration;

The below was the exemption I felt applied and considered that I was operating a mobile service and understood that the mobile service is the same as the service premises and so was not transporting the waste until taking it to a waste site.
However the mobile site reference is only applicable to hazardous waste and the hazardous waste regulations state that all hazardous waste produced at a site must be consigned if removed from the service site, which will be an absolute nightmare and prevent my business operating so I will have to leave hazardous waste with the customer.
The Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011
Exemptions in relation to carriers
26.—(1) The following are not required to be a registered carrier of controlled waste for the
purposes of section 1 of the Control of Pollution (Amendment) Act 1989—
(a) a carrier who is a specified person and who does not normally and regularly transport
controlled waste;


(5) In this Part—
“specified person” means—
(e) a carrier which only transports waste produced by the carrier itself, except where it is
construction or demolition waste (and “construction” includes improvement, repair and
alteration);

If the mobile site is part of the service premises then this is the movement of waste between different places in a premises.
The Control of Pollution (Amendment) Act 1989
Offence of transporting controlled waste without registering.
(1)Subject to the following provisions of this section, it shall be an offence for any person who is not a registered carrier of controlled waste, in the course of any business of his or otherwise with a view to profit, to transport any controlled waste to or from any place in Great Britain.
(2)A person shall not be guilty of an offence under this section in respect of—
(a)the transport of controlled waste within the same premises between different places in those premises;

Environment Agency Waste carriers, brokers and dealers - definitions
Carrier
A person who transports controlled waste in the course of a business or otherwise with a view to profit.
From this definition I was not carrying the waste with a view to profit however the EA has split the sentence to be "the course of a business" OR "a view to profit".


Lower tier applicant or registrant also known as ‘specified person’
Any person who is required to register as a carrier, broker or dealer and who falls within one of the categories of 'specified persons' as defined in the Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011. These are:
OR after 2013, a carrier who only transports waste produced by the carrier itself, except where it is construction or demolition waste (up until then they are excluded).
Lower tier registrations are indefinite unless we revoke it or the registrant wants to withdraw it.


As a mobile service I am not normally and regularly carrying waste.
Exempt activities
People who do not need to register because of a specific exemption in the regulations:
any lower tier carrier who does not normally and regularly transport controlled waste
until after 2013, the existing exemption for carriers who only transport their own waste (unless it is construction and demolition waste) will remain in place.
Excluded activities
People who are excluded from the requirement to register. These include:
Any person who carries controlled wastes but not as part of their business or otherwise for profit
Any person carrying waste between different places of the same premises.


So yes you do need to register as a waste carrier, you do need to register your site as a hazardous waste producer, you do need to consign all hazardous waste off the customer site, you do need a waste transfer note for all waste removed from the customers site, wonderful!!
I will have to look more and find some exemptions:smiley2:

 

[Gavin A]

Thing is, I really don't think those regulations were intended to apply to a business where the only real waste being carried is cardboard or plastic packaging, which is then collected weekly from our warehouse by a licensed waste carrier for recycling.

It's fairly obviously aimed at large volumes of actual construction waste eg rubble, cement, bricks, tiles etc etc.

We changed the terms of our contracts to make the customer responsible for dealing with the majority of the waste generated anyway, to avoid having to get into this issue too much.

 

[moggy1968]

Thats good info.
It does prove to me that the councils are missusing legislation intended for professional carriers of waste (i.e waste disposal companies). It is very clear this is what this is intended for but I think (altough don't know for sure) that they are probably getting tradesment under the

'in the course of any business of his or otherwise with a view to profit, to transport any controlled waste to or from any place in Great Britain.'

IMHO prosecuting tradesmen is a total missinterpretation of the regulations. I don't think anyone has challenged a prosecution yet

 

[BruceB]

We changed the terms of our contracts to make the customer responsible for dealing with the majority of the waste generated anyway, to avoid having to get into this issue too much.

So did I, but if the customer has nowhere to sensibly store large quantities of cardboard I feel embarrassed leaving it with them and they really do seem enormously grateful when you clear up the place properly.

 

[BruceB]

What a comprehensive answer to my question on carrying waste! I agree that EA, Councils and other exploit every bit of legislation they can to:
- increase their power;
- increase their income.
For electricians, as an example, it is really just another tax and does not achieve anything in terms of saving the planet or other worthy cause.

 

[Gavin A]

So did I, but if the customer has nowhere to sensibly store large quantities of cardboard I feel embarrassed leaving it with them and they really do seem enormously grateful when you clear up the place properly.

well, in those cases it makes a handy tool storage device for the van I find.

 

[Earthstore]

Hell, where is this thread heading? Do we all adhere to every little rule, really..
Has anyone ever been prosecuted for carrying a few bits of cardboard back from a job? It is not as though you are driving around to every PV installation in the country and just collecting the rubbish and then dumping it in a gateway..
As some have pointed out, it is not rubbish, it is a tool box, or padding to stop things breaking, or maybe materials for the 3 little pigs to build a new house as they could not find any straw or sticks.
Come on chaps, lets talk about Inverters or panels or slag off the Government...
Rant over.

 

[moggy1968]

I have anecdotal stories of people being pulled, including one of someone getting done for dust in their hoover, don't know if thats approcrphyl though!

 

[Earthstore]

approcrphyl

You do come up with some great words Moggy, thank god for Google (no pun intended)

 

[moggy1968]

I think I splet it wong though!
Here's a section from a posting from the checkatrade forum
They've been doing it for ages. I got stopped over a year ago. Had 2 rubble sacks of broken tiles etc in the back and was on my way to the next job where I had a skip. He let me off with a warning as I genuinely didn't know about the licence for piddling amounts like that anyway. As mentioned above, just another tax. All it will do is increase fly-tipping I reckon.

and another from a guy who got a warning letter from the environment agency

The enviroment agency did say to me on the phone that if items are taken from a place of work and is unwanted by your client it then becomes waste even if it was one slab in good comdition which i was going to use on another job it is still clased as waste

and another

Hi Guys I got pulled over yesterday back of van was full with tools and genuine new materials but because of lack of time there was also alot of wood shavings and saw dust and the odd old screw on the floor just a general build up of stuff that had fallen out of the rubble sacks that you do not clean out every day. The guy looked at it and said have you got a licence I couldn't show it to him quick enough.
You have been warned. They are out to get you they need the money.

 

[moggy1968]

here's the reply from a professional waste carrier, so he should know!!

If YOU are taking waste/rubbish etc from one of your jobs to the tip - YES you need a Waste Carriers licence. NOTE: you can't take it to the council tip as its 'Trade Waste' you have to take it to the commercial tip, weigh in, weigh out and pay for it. Its also worth being aware that the average prices are between £90-£125 per tonne (+ the dreaded) and then a lot of the tips charge you a minimum weight (0.5 tonne) which gets quite expensive when you need to get rid of Mrs Miggins 12 bags of general crap before you can load up ready for the next day.
If you knock down Mrs Miggins stud wall - Timber, plasterboard etc, stack it on her drive and call out a Rubbish/Waste Clearance company (who hold a waste carriers licence) to shift it - it DOES NOT make you a Waste Broker (for which you need a licence) - you are the current holder of the waste, you have produced that waste - It was a perfectly functioning wall untill YOU knocked it down and redered it to be rubbish. As long as you use a licensed Waste Carrier you are in the clear. If you use an unlicenced on and they 'fly tip' it and the Environment Agency find anything (delivery note/letter etc) that enables them to trace it back to you then you are royally screwed - it doesnt matter if you have got a receipt scribbled on the back of an old smoke packet from John Smith. Its your duty to ensure that the person/company taking the rubbish away is licenced.
A heads up for any of you that are thinking of getting a Waste Carriers Licence, loading your van up from your various jobs and carting the rubbish back to a skip conveniently placed on your driveway - YOU CANT do this. Your Waste Carriers licence allows you to collect the Waste from point A and transport it to point B - Point B being a licenced Waste Transfer Station.
If any of you have a Skip receipt handy have a look at it - you should see the Skip companies Waste Carriers Licence No: ************* and also
Waste Management NO: ************ They have to hold a Waste Management Licence to tip the skip up in the yard because the yard is a Waste Transfer Station because they have transported it from Point A (where they collected the skip) to Point B (their yard) where they will sort it and seperate recyclables - Trust me they DO!!

before shipping it on to the appropriate place.

Going back to my comments above about not being a Waste Broker - If you were doing a job at Mrs Miggins house and you mentioned to her that the rubbish clearance man was coming to take away the rubbish you had generated (remember that stud wall you knocked down) and she asked you to get the rubbish man to take away a load of old junk that she had in the Garage and add the cost to your bill - Technically THIS COULD put you in the category of being a Waste Broker because you have arranged for the disposal of somebody elses waste, paid for the Licenced Carrier it and then charged the customer for it - making you the 'Middle Man' and technically a Waste Broker.

appologies for going way off topic, I'll try and shut up now!

 

[Earthstore]

Better empty my ashtray, it is rather full....

 

[Cider]

Back to the original topic, turns out the install company has gone bust !
The lady who has the free system does not know whats going on. She has scaffold up and a system installed on the roof.
MCS and trading standards have been informed and it will be interesting to see what happens.
A few days back a toe board fell off and landed on her flat roor in the night and she freaked.

 

[Gavin A]

tell your scaf company there's a houseworth of free scaf going begging if they can get it taken down IMO (maybe check some of the boards, tubes etc first to see if they have the scaf companies details).

 

[moggy1968]

looks like she has a free system she can claim FiTS on then?

 

[Cider]

tell your scaf company there's a houseworth of free scaf going begging if they can get it taken down IMO (maybe check some of the boards, tubes etc first to see if they have the scaf companies details).

yeh ive thought about this, dont think most scafolders care who owns what.

As for can she claim the fits i guess the system belongs to the receivers and she just has to sit tight and wait to be contacted

 

[moggy1968]

has the system actually been registered?

 

[Earthstore]

She would need proof of ownership, like an invoice that says "paid in full" to be able to register for the FIT.

 

[Cider]

She has no idea.
We are talking elderly lady, recently widowed living on her own.
Sales guy turns up and she signs a contract, few weeks later comes home and scaffold up, few days later system installed and everyone buggers off leaving all rubbish and scaffold there.
She called company and scaffold company and has never got through. Then she sent registered letters which were ignored and then one day rubbish disappeared which lets face it could have been a fussy neighbour.
I got told about it before easter (its a family friend) and i said phone them up and tell them youve turned it off and if its not gone by a week its being scrapped. Also got her to contact MCS who have discovered they have gone bust so shes now in limbo.
She would need to employ a good solicitor to make sure she could lay claim to the system to prove ownership but the system must have been already registered to the company when they fitted it. I cannot imagine free installers sitting on fit forms etc very long.
Its all a big balls up.

 

[Earthstore]

The system may have been registered on the MCS website, however it is the customer that registers for the FIT, normally with their energy provider, some companies do this for their customers, and some help the customer fill in the forms.
My advise, for what it is worth, would be to get a local PV company to help out, this is far too complex for a solicitor, they would not know where to start, but would charge this lady a fortune for the pleasure.
Sorry it may have been posted, but what area of the country does she live in?

 

[Cider]

Shes in north bristol 1/2 mile from me.

 

[moggy1968]

She would need proof of ownership, like an invoice that says "paid in full" to be able to register for the FIT.

good point, that might be the tricky bit.