Safety Relays and legal requirement

[stef]

:nono:

Afternoon chaps,

I think this has been discussed before, but ...
Lets say, I have a piece of old kit (in my case it is a 1970s spool turning machine, not NC, all mechanical with hundreds of knobs and gears)
without a safety relay, without proper guard switched (just ordinary poller limit switches, one e=stop button on the main panel.
The way it is wired up is all roller switches in series together with the start stop circuit, switching the motor contactor on/off. Which was quite common in the good old days. As far as I know - and I am probably wrong - if I leave it as it was designed despite non-compliant with
current laws and regulations it is considered as OK. If I now add an additional emergency stop button the modification has to comply with
todays standards, this means a separate safety circuit with failsafe safety relay. I downloaded some machine safety hand books but the information on modifying existing safety circuits is very vague. I just want to mention the Schneider machine safety handbook.
legally, where do I stand? If I leave the safety relay out of the modification then I cannot guarantee safety and would endanger life.

The reason for this threat: I need to justify a couple of grand for a safety circuit on a acid wash line and ideally I want a law or statutory regulation. I am not sure whether the machine safety directive doe cover this. The thing is, the "brains" department always want it in black and
white. Anyone who can push me in the right direction?

 

[netblindpaul]

stef,
No matter what you say, if your description is as I understand it from the first few lines of your post, it does no longer meet current requirements.

There is no more I can say, apart from to comply with statute law is should have already been updated.
If the company responsible for the use of the machine has not yet done this, then stay away, because they will dump on you from a great height, when there is an incident.

 

[itselectric]

I think I'm right in thinking the company must have an insurance, if so there will be an assessor, who would check each machine and put in a report of, recommended and manditory safety measures for the machines.
Thats assuming they have an insurance out on the plant for health and safety.

 

[netblindpaul]

itselectric,
I'm not sure what you mean.
It is not possible to insure against statute law breaches.
Can you explain further your comment please?

 

[itselectric]

Let's be right here, I'm not a hundred percent right in thinking it's law.
Having time to think about it the guy who comes round our place once a year may have something to do with a health and safety company, because he can close a machine down on the spot if it doesn't conform to h&s, I have also had to upgrade machines in the past under instruction from insurance assessor. I will try and get a bit more info. on this and post it later, if you don't get a solution.

 

[Knobhead]

Stef, have a look at this http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk/documents/legislation/Machine-Safety-Guide.pdf

 

[stef]

I think I'm right in thinking the company must have an insurance, if so there will be an assessor, who would check each machine and put in a report of, recommended and manditory safety measures for the machines.
Thats assuming they have an insurance out on the plant for health and safety.

Yes, it has an insurance, ond once per year Rockwell come in to 'sign off' the safety side of the machines, however, Rockwell is as useful as a catflap on a submarine.
a few years back they were asked to install a fire cut out on a huge hydraulic power pack. During a planned maintenance I thought I test it for the sheer hell, guess what, it didn't work. When questioned they admitted the electrician they contracte was only familiar with house installations
:66:

- - - Updated - - -

Stef, have a look at this http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk/documents/legislation/Machine-Safety-Guide.pdf

Tony, thanks for that.

 

[SheffSimon]

Any new machines must meet the Essential Health and Safety Requirements (EHSR) defined in
the Machinery Directive 2006/42/EC.

Modifications to old machines also have to comply.

One way of demonstrating compliance is by following either EN ISO 13849-1 and EN 62061. The outcome will be virtually the same in either case.

Generally, do a risk assessment, try to eliminate the risks by guarding etc. For any remaining risks which will be eliminated (made negligible) using electrical controls, determine the required Performance Level of the safety related electrical controls, design your circuits, prove and document that your circuits meet the required PL, implement, test and prove that they do. Document it all...google Sistema, I find it useful in producing all the required docs, and doing the calcs etc.

Dont just think you can leave out your safety relay and can then ignore it. You're fitting an estop, so you're making a changing. It might be time consuming and awkward to do, but it just might prevent a minor accident, a serious accident or a death, so do it right.

 

[itselectric]

This is sound advice, remember if anyone is hurt your head could be on the block as well as your gaffers.
I asked around and we have a similar scheme to yours, except we are requested to have the work done and they check that it has been.
Have you no comeback (ie)recompense for a job wrongly done, and I wonder what would have been the outcome in the courts if an accident had happened.
HOW come rockwell didn't point out the safety device needed.

 

[stef]

This is sound advice, remember if anyone is hurt your head could be on the block as well as your gaffers.
I asked around and we have a similar scheme to yours, except we are requested to have the work done and they check that it has been.
Have you no comeback (ie)recompense for a job wrongly done, and I wonder what would have been the outcome in the courts if an accident had happened.
HOW come rockwell didn't point out the safety device needed.

they have itselectric, but they overlooked some guards and I checked one machine
so there might be more to come. I don't want to mention how much the quote was
for two guard switches, two e-stops a safety relay, a bit of anaconda and cable.
when I heard how much I was tempted to ask whether they were using 24 carat
solid gold guard switches.

 

[netblindpaul]

stef,
I believe that you have missed the point with the work done by Rockwell perhaps.
IF they are fitting the modification, then they have to do all the background work such as has been discussed here.
Then, they have to take on the liability for the design.
So, whilst you only see a few switches etc. there is an awful lot more to this sort of work than can be seen in the finished article.

 

[Spoon]

stef,
I believe that you have missed the point with the work done by Rockwell perhaps.
IF they are fitting the modification, then they have to do all the background work such as has been discussed here.
Then, they have to take on the liability for the design.
So, whilst you only see a few switches etc. there is an awful lot more to this sort of work than can be seen in the finished article.

Very true. I've read a few things on this forum where they guys say that the customer is whinging about the price of adding a few sockets. What the customers doesn't realise is what goes behind the work and its not just plonking a socket in the wall. Same thing here. If someone is taking on the liability for the design and all the other work that goes behind this then that is going to cost.

stef: If you think the quote you have been given is a bit to high, you could always tell the quote people that you think that the quote is a bit steep and please could you have a break-down of the price for the quote. They usually come back with a cheaper quote.