SAP calculations and general misselling

[SolarCity]

I've just had an interesting meeting with a potential customer. He has had a few different quotes and he is more or less sure he wants to go with us. He was confused about a few things, however, and it's hardly surprising. He showed me some of the claims that have been made by other PV firms and I have to say I am genuinely shocked.

First of all, almost all of the firms were using SAP 2009 when as we all know they should be using SAP 2005. The MCS is clear about this and the only reason anyone would use the new version, in my opinion, would be to make their system appear more efficient than a customer. This kind of thing does not come down to choice - this is a rule. One firm (a forum contributor, no less) claimed that they use an 80% factor in their calculations because they are worried about overselling the system - giving the impression that the actual yield would actually be much higher. They were in fact talking about the standard 0.8 factor that we all apply to our SAP calculations.

Next, some of the calculations were WAY, WAY off. Considering the fact that the SAP calculation is so simple, I have to assume that either the designers simply cannot do maths which means they shouldn't be designing in the first place or they are deliberately trying to con the customer. None of the firms - not ONE factored in the very obvious and troublesome shading issues.

The other truly bizarre claims came when it came to the size of the system. It simply wouldn't be physically possible to fit the sizes of systems on the roof. There were no design notes nor layouts so heaven knows what they were thinking.

If I win the job then I will ask for the dodgy quotes and forward them on to MCS and REAL. It will be very interesting to see what they make of it.

 

[dansk]

Its a freaking joke - Well done you for showing the customer the wrongs of the others - but sometimes they can look at you as the villan and them as the good guys!

Its does my head in when i read stuff like this, why oh why cant they just abide by the book.

 

[yellowvanman]

almost all of the firms were using SAP 2009 when as we all know they should be using SAP 2005.

Appreciate what your saying but some PV examining boards are suggesting that SAP2009 is used, eg. Logic.

I've spoken to a respected guy in renewables about this and he says MCS (Gemserv) take an age to update their documentation!

 

[grandfortune]

i was taught to use 2009, i've also spoke to a renewable guru, he stated 2009 is fine, so which one should i use, why is there a 2005 and 2009 flying around??. also which one is more accurate.

 

[liquidity]

I liked the quote I received where 16 250 watt Yingli panels are predicted produce 3372 kWh/year (using the SAP 2009 table and the 0.8 multiplier) but 16 250 watt Sanyo panels are predicted to produce 4216 kWh/year (also using the SAP 2009 table but a multiplier of 1.0!). This is because the Sanyo panels are more efficient. I pointed out that they were still 250 watt panels and were primarily more space efficient but the point was lost on the sales chap. Bless.

 

[PV Martin]

just to say i got a non conformance this year on my 2nd MCS review by Elecsa because i HAD NOT used SAP 2009. i didnt understand this as MIS3001 (or what ever it is) still quotes SAP2005??? when is MCS going to get organised and e-mail all members with any updates that effect the way things are done:angry_smile:

 

[SRE]

I find that very few of my competitors do roof layouts - I can't quite see why, surely they must need to do the layout to double check space round edges, shading etc.

Speed quoting - did a quote in 50 mins tonight! But I have to confess it was a phone survey, recommendation from a happy customer who "caught" his friend thinking about going to another company. He rang with th details, I talked him through the options and clarified measurements etc. The timer on - 50 mins start to finish for the quote but all dependent on a confirmation of details on site and of course the structural assessment.


I did spend 45 mins on the phone to him explaining everything and I didn't do a roof layout - will do once I've seen it in the flesh so to speak. Bu this guy was quite happy to do that because we couldn't get out to him before the end of August. Saved a bit of time ....

 

[mmorse60]

Do you use software for the roof layout?

 

[SRE]

PVSOL the middle range one can't remember what you call it. Biggs will know ..

 

[GreggElectrical]

I went to a site the other day and was shown a competitiors quote. I was reassured to see that they had indeed complied with MCS and REAL.
The thing that caught my eye was the real leaflet they had sent with the quote. Not brilliant but great way to tell the customer what to expect from a quote and what is not allowed. It would certainly catch a few people out around here.
Quick e-mail to Real and 200 Leaflets arrived at my door a day later.

What's this? A PV installer sticking up for REAL? I've obviously had too much to drink!

 

[SolarCity]

Surely the PV examining boards are checking that people are following the MCS guidelines - MCS documentation says that SAP 2005 should be followed.


"I liked the quote I received where 16 250 watt Yingli panels are predicted produce 3372 kWh/year (using the SAP 2009 table and the 0.8 multiplier) but 16 250 watt Sanyo panels are predicted to produce 4216 kWh/year (also using the SAP 2009 table but a multiplier of 1.0!). This is because the Sanyo panels are more efficient."

In my eyes, this is a major non-compliance. Which firm supplied you with this quote?

If my meeting yesterday is anything to go on then I have to say that the problem with misselling is huge.

 

[SRE]

I went to a site the other day and was shown a competitiors quote. I was reassured to see that they had indeed complied with MCS and REAL.
The thing that caught my eye was the real leaflet they had sent with the quote. Not brilliant but great way to tell the customer what to expect from a quote and what is not allowed. It would certainly catch a few people out around here.
Quick e-mail to Real and 200 Leaflets arrived at my door a day later.

What's this? A PV installer sticking up for REAL? I've obviously had too much to drink!

It's in dowloadable format on the REAL site we send one to every customer and draw their attention to it in the covering letter. I thought that was part of the code to provide the leaflet for every survey?

 

[northernsun]

Yeah, I was under the impression that you had to send one with every quote/survey too? Reminds me, I've got to ring up for some more. The cards are quite nice!

 

[STEL]

Do REAL actually clamp down on any miss-selling though? I recently reported a company to REAL for offering a full refund to customers if they're the 1st in an area. They checked the list and found out the company isn't a member of REAL, which means they must be just generating sales for another company, but it was obvious they weren't going to look into it.

It's simple to stick to the guidelines, and I'm fairly sure our customers will appreciate that, but seems most companies can't resist throwing an offer in there!

 

[SolarCity]

They checked the list and found out the company isn't a member of REAL, which means they must be just generating sales for another company, but it was obvious they weren't going to look into it.

An absolutely poxy loophole that I can't believe hasn't been sorted yet.