Saving gas

[CACJL]

When I purchase my present house, the hot water and central heating system left a lot to be desired, installed by some cowboy fitter, employed by the previous elderly owners.
The first thing I noticed was the cylinder thermostat control a motorised valve, that controlled the gravity circulation, so when the hot water cylinder reached the set temperature the circulation was blocked, but the boiler kept on cycling. This has now been rectified by having pumped circulation, controlled by the cylinder thermostat. Now when both circulation pumps (central heating and hot water) are not operating, the boiler is inhibited, to prevent wasteful boiler cycling.
Also I have fitted a 60 degree C thermostat to boiler return pipe , so when the returning water exceeds 60C, the boiler is turned off, this idea has been patented by a major energy company.
I also replaced all the radiator thermostatic valves, non of which seemed function correctly with normal ones and fitted an electronic wall thermostat to control the central heating pump, which ran continuously before.

 

[Guest111]

Waste of money having 2 pumps,it could have been done with 2 motorised valves and 1 pump,leaving less pumps to go down,still each to his own i suppose.

 

[snowhead]

Return pipe stats have been in use for 40 years that I know of, maybe not on Domestic systems for that long.

 

[telectrix]

hmm, joined 2 and 1/2 years ago and this is his first post. if i was marking it, i'd write " could do better". i had it on all my school reports.

 

[HandySparks]

Welcome to the forum.

 

[chris murphy]

When I purchase my present house, the hot water and central heating system left a lot to be desired, installed by some cowboy fitter, employed by the previous elderly owners.
The first thing I noticed was the cylinder thermostat control a motorised valve, that controlled the gravity circulation, so when the hot water cylinder reached the set temperature the circulation was blocked, but the boiler kept on cycling. This has now been rectified by having pumped circulation, controlled by the cylinder thermostat. Now when both circulation pumps (central heating and hot water) are not operating, the boiler is inhibited, to prevent wasteful boiler cycling.
Also I have fitted a 60 degree C thermostat to boiler return pipe , so when the returning water exceeds 60C, the boiler is turned off, this idea has been patented by a major energy company.
I also replaced all the radiator thermostatic valves, non of which seemed function correctly with normal ones and fitted an electronic wall thermostat to control the central heating pump, which ran continuously before.

"Hello CACJL",


I think that other Members may not have realised that You have tried to make your existing / `Old Fashioned` Heating & Hot Water System better - without having to completely reconfigure the Pipework to make it into an `S Plan` Fully Pumped System.


However I am sure that You could have had the Zone Valve to the Hot Water Cylinder wired to create a `Boiler Interlock` in conjunction with the Heating Zone Valve without having to add a second Pump - although Gravity circulation to a Cylinder is sometimes not as good as it could be depending upon the Pipework and whether a 28mm Zone Valve was fitted or a 22mm Valve.

Adding a Pump to the previously Gravity Flow & Return to the Hot Water Cylinder can sometimes create circulation problems within the Boiler waterways - depending upon the location / pumping direction of the Heating System Pump - this can inhibit the correct circulation of water in the Heating Flow and Return Pipework / Radiators.

Regarding the installation of a 60 Degree Thermostat to the Return Pipe on the Heating System - this will possibly mean that not so much Gas is used ? - this is questionable regarding the Room Thermostat taking longer to be satisfied ?

BUT it could also mean that the Radiators will NOT produce enough Heat in really Cold Weather / Temperatures - IF they are even approximately `correctly calculated` / sized - this could then cause a problem regarding the Room Thermostat setting being satisfied by the Heat Production from the Radiators in that area.

This is because when a Open Vented Heating System is operating on the Maximum setting on the Boiler the Flow Temperature exiting the Boiler will be approximately 82 to 85 Degrees - when the System Radiators / Pipework / Boiler water content reaches the `Optimum Temperature` for the Maximum Heat Output from the Radiators the Flow into the Radiators should be at approximately 82 Degrees and the Return from the Radiators at approximately 71 Degrees.

Even if it was guessed that the Return Pipework to the Boiler would then `Lose` 2 or 3 Degrees from that Radiator Return Temperature this would be much higher than a 60 Degree Return Temperature to the Boiler - e.g: 68 / 69 Degrees.

Having a Thermostat that shuts down the Boiler when the Return Temperature is at 60 Degrees will cause the Boiler to shut down prematurely meaning that the 82 / 71 Temperature differential across the Radiators is NEVER achieved - this will mean that the Radiators will NEVER output the correct amount of Heat into the Rooms.

Without going into the `Delta T` issue regarding the Heating Water Temperature - [in case another Heating Engineer decides to mention this] - broadly Radiator Heat Output is calculated using these Flow and Return water temperatures / Temperature differential [82 / 71].

Hopefully You will not have this problem with your Heating System - perhaps the Radiators may be oversized and there will not be a problem in really Cold Weather / Temperatures [?].

Usually Thermostatic Radiator Valves AND a Room Thermostat [for Boiler Interlock] would enhance your control of the Heat required for each Room and would definitely save Gas / Money by allowing you to set a different Temperature for Rooms that you might not need to Heat as warm as others - but of course they cost quite a lot of Money for all but one of the Radiators [No TRV where the Room Thermostat is located].


Good Luck for the Winter with your Heating System.


Regards,


Chris - Heating Engineer - Registered Gas Engineer - Plumber / Heating, Plumbing & Gas Contractor

 

[puddy]

You think 2 pumps are over the top mine has 3 pumps anybody here worked/with on a boilermate 2000? I think they are great Persimmon used to fit them to all their houses. Currently I have just had my oil boiler replaced from a Grandee to a Worcester bosch 18/25WM.

I had to have the oil tank replaced at the same time due to air entering the Grandee line making it back firing. We couldn’t find out why or wear it was happening boiler tank or oil line so got a new tank laid a new oil line and fitted Worcester bosch 18/25 WM plus a Honeywell cm907 thermostat. The rads already have TRV fitted.

If I run out of oil or the boiler breakdown I can switch the boilermate to emergency mode which switches it to electric. So we kept the boilermate 2000 but took out an insurance policy out with boilermate at a cost £90 a year.

We have to claim twice due to the plumber dry firing the system and again due to an air lock when the system was refilled incorrectly. I live in a 3 bedroom house and a 1000 gallon of oil will last about 10-11 months and we are at home all the time 2 adults

 

[chris murphy]

You think 2 pumps are over the top mine has 3 pumps anybody here worked/with on a boilermate 2000? I think they are great Persimmon used to fit them to all their houses. Currently I have just had my oil boiler replaced from a Grandee to a Worcester bosch 18/25WM.

I had to have the oil tank replaced at the same time due to air entering the Grandee line making it back firing. We couldn’t find out why or wear it was happening boiler tank or oil line so got a new tank laid a new oil line and fitted Worcester bosch 18/25 WM plus a Honeywell cm907 thermostat. The rads already have TRV fitted.

If I run out of oil or the boiler breakdown I can switch the boilermate to emergency mode which switches it to electric. So we kept the boilermate 2000 but took out an insurance policy out with boilermate at a cost £90 a year.

We have to claim twice due to the plumber dry firing the system and again due to an air lock when the system was refilled incorrectly. I live in a 3 bedroom house and a 1000 gallon of oil will last about 10-11 months and we are at home all the time 2 adults

"Hello puddy",


I / We were stating that it would not usually be necessary to install a 2nd Pump to be able to achieve `Boiler Interlock` from a Zone Valve on what were previously the Gravity Flow & Return pipes to the Hot Water Cylinder.

Installing a 2nd Pump is sometimes necessary if a 22mm Zone Valve is fitted in Error to the 28mm Cylinder Flow & Return - as the 22mm Zone Valve can reduce [or Stop] the Gravity circulation to an unacceptable level.

The Boiler Interlock for the Cylinder / Hot Water usually could have been achieved by wiring the Zone Valve / Heating Controls in a different configuration to what existed - as I / We assumed that the Gravity Flow & Return were circulating O.K. previously with the Zone Valve fitted.


You mentioned having 3 Pumps - for the benefit of other Members / readers this is because the Pumps are integral components of the BoilerMate 2000 Unit.


I have not installed any BoilerMate Units - manufactured by Gledhill a very reputable manufacturer of Heating products - but I have heard both Good and critical comments about them from Boiler / Heating Engineers who work on Repair and Maintenance Companies.


Regards,

Chris