Shower job

[Griffin]

Got a call from a mate who's a plumber he has a job to 'just change a U/S shower with another same sized unit' (8.5kw)

CU is old wylex with rewirables, No RCD's in sight

I have told him I won't do it until I have checked the following

• Main bonding is adequate and in place
• Check and verify earthing arrangements
• Fit as RCD to shower supply (in accordance with manufacturers instructions)

Obvioulsy this is the safest and most thorough way of doing the job, but could the work be also classed as maintenance or a distress change??????

The customer wants to spend as little as possible (as usual)

Thoughts please guys and gals

G

 

[Phil Mumford]

In my opinion its a 'one for one'. Use a minor works to highlight the fact that under CURRENT regulations the shower requires RCD protection. There is no duty to upgrade to modern standards if the install complied at the time and is 'safe'.

Bonding/earthing must be upgraded before proceeding if not compliant as you already know. Apart from an oversized MCB protecting the cable for the shower (which would obviously be replaced) or some glaring danger the earthing/bonding is the only thing that would stop me swapping old for new.

 

[sparks1234]

I have just done a job very similar to this that had old Wylex B type breakers, The bonding was ok, the breaker is ok but it had no RCD, for what that cost, probably £30, I lobbed one in next to the consumer unit, is it worth the risk?

 

[patricklondon]

just had a look. very nice website there fella i wouldnt have thouht of an esc link

 

[Darkwood]

fitting new showers or replacing them both require rcd protection as this is now stipulated in the shower installation instructions nowadays so arguing that its just a changeover dosnt hold much ground in my mind when the manufacturers tell you to protect their products in this manner.
Im pretty certain that their are regs out there that say manufacturers advice must be taken and adhered to where safety,use and installation are concerns and were you to deviate from this then technical advice should be searched for and i can give you 1 guess what they would say about no rcd protection.

 

[Phil Mumford]

I still reckon the manufacturers don't write BS7671. Safe is safe. Safer is better but I have yet to hear of anyone being electrocuted while showering. Maybe I read the wrong internet.....

 

[Risteard]

I still reckon the manufacturers don't write BS7671. Safe is safe. Safer is better but I have yet to hear of anyone being electrocuted while showering. Maybe I read the wrong internet.....

The point is that the IEE Wiring Regulations REQUIRE compliance with manufacturer's instructions. As such, any such failure to comply automatically results in a failure to comply with the IEE Wiring Regulations.

 

[Darkwood]

I still reckon the manufacturers don't write BS7671. Safe is safe. Safer is better but I have yet to hear of anyone being electrocuted while showering. Maybe I read the wrong internet.....

Check reg 510.2 it states that manufacturers instructions shall be taken in to account, as for showers, these go faulty, seals perish with time and other trades (plumbers) may service and not refit properly so i always rcd protect as peace of mind is a great comfort.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Manufacturers instructions have to be complied with, but as the saying goes you can only take the horse to the water, you cant make it drink. Personally i wouldnt fit it without RCD, but if they are adamant then walk away, it will be you who gets sh*t on when something goes pear shape, and it will be your fault when they have a problem with the new shower when the engineer turns up to do warranty job, it wasnt installed properly so the warranty is void,they get big bill and then i bet the customer doesnt remember the conversation about RCD`s and manufacturers instructions etc......do you see where i am coming from.

 

[Phil Mumford]

Understood and appreciated. I still wouldn't insist on a customer having one as the manufacturers are only trying to tell the customer they SHOULD have one to comply with CURRENT regs. Buy an old shower and the instructions would be different

If showers needed RCD's to run they would be built in.

Yes, I am a stubborn git! lol

 

[Spudnik]

I would not leave a shower without an RCD.

Mira seem to agree too..

http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/pdf/advance_90_98.pdf

Page 12

 

[Wotsit]

Understood and appreciated. I still wouldn't insist on a customer having one as the manufacturers are only trying to tell the customer they SHOULD have one to comply with CURRENT regs. Buy an old shower and the instructions would be different

If showers needed RCD's to run they would be built in.

Yes, I am a stubborn git! lol

This is why we have the corporate manslaughter act 2007!

 

[Phil Mumford]

OK I am outvoted !

What is the recommendation code when doing a periodic for lack of RCD protection for a circuit in a bathroom ?

Code 4

Same as a lack of RCD protection for cables buried in a wall to a depth of less than blah blah blah and socket outlets under 20A blah blah blah

Dead dangerous eh?

As long as the shower is earthed and the earthing/bonding is up to scratch it was safe for 50 years before the advent of the 17th. All of a sudden because of over-reliance on RCD's it is a criminal offence to replace a shower without installing an RCD? I would agree that installing an RCD is best practice but it is not required under current regulations. I may be wrong but that is my honest opinion.

I will make it my business to check with the NICEIC just in case I am wrong on this one.

Thanks for input(s) all.

 

[Wotsit]

The problem is the eic; special locations require an eic even for replacements and limitations are not accetpable on an eic. (Please correct me if i am wrong) The schedule of inspections must be satisfactory before work commences.

You can eic only one cct or even part of cct.

 

[Griffin]

Thanks for you opinoins guys,

The safe option is always the best, but the customer always has the final say all you can do is offer the best advise as professional.

Thanks for the comments on the website its still under devlopment

Regards

G