So much for REAL

[Markc]

So wheres all the monies going for us to be with an office of fair trading scheme such as real? It certainly ins't for enforcement!

Survey today to a existing customer of ours who has had two PV companies in to provide a price. Needless to say he got theses as a price comparison to our price which I have no issues with. Not knowing the prices he has got to date I gave him a ball park figure while on site. This isn't something I would do for a potential client how I have not worked for before. My price was competitive so he said and so with that he puled out the two earlier quotes. I was in by only £110. BUT this is the reason for the post. Quotation one states: a return to investment of 18.2% and quote two stated giving an annual design yield of 3430kWh on a 3840kWp system so not using SAP's?

Now I'm not going to be picky but if this isn't miss selling then I don't know what is.

And by the way we will be installing in March!

 

[bugsy]

Any money these guy's were salesmen and not installers, there will be a get out clause or small print someware, make the most of PV installations while you can because when you guy's have established a decent market the big boy's will move in and it will be a bloodbath.

 

[HotSpot]

Hi Mark C

I'm quite new to this forum but have been following the posts regularly and I much appreciate the assistance you give.

I soon hope to have my MCS accreditation and as I have 'expanded' my horizons on the renewables side...MCS....REAL etc, I have become more and more angered by stories of sloppy/dangerous installations, companies that push the limits when it comes to H&S and now a further frustration that there are people out there who blatantly mis-sell.

Sadly, this is the kind of thing that gives the whole industry a terrible name to the detriment of good, decent and honest installers. If only there were a way of stopping the terrible money-grabbing that is going on!!!???

How did you deal with it with your customer, did you explain they were wrong, or just let it lie?

 

[Markc]

Hi Mark C

I'm quite new to this forum but have been following the posts regularly and I much appreciate the assistance you give.

I soon hope to have my MCS accreditation and as I have 'expanded' my horizons on the renewables side...MCS....REAL etc, I have become more and more angered by stories of sloppy/dangerous installations, companies that push the limits when it comes to H&S and now a further frustration that there are people out there who blatantly mis-sell.

Sadly, this is the kind of thing that gives the whole industry a terrible name to the detriment of good, decent and honest installers. If only there were a way of stopping the terrible money-grabbing that is going on!!!???

How did you deal with it with your customer, did you explain they were wrong, or just let it lie?

Fortunately our client respects what we say so we explained the issues. As soon as I have the design and contract drawn he is going to sign. If this was a potential client who we hadn't worked for before then I don't know how we would of stood. Also turns out quote two recommended Yingli poly panels as they apparently have a "unsurpassed efficiency rating?" Do they know something I don't.

If he allows I will copy the quotes and may be might leave them just lying around on 21st Fabruary when a very nice lady from REAL comes to do our audit......Oh no how did they get there? I shouldn't leave things like that lying around!!!!!

 

[futurewired]

Yes, i had the same from a big national double glazing company, salesman tries charging 18000, for 9 panels and said it was a 2kw system dropped it 4000 and the client signed there and then (old couple), with no expected yeild equipment specs, or any information required in clauses by real and mcs.
It took me 3 weeks and 2 demanding letters to get it cancelled!!

 

[HotSpot]

Is there not a phone number you can call to grass these guys up? There should be!!!! We shouldn't have to wait for Which Magazine to do an expose' on all the Double Glazing turned PV salesman. Makes my blood boil!

 

[Markc]

Unfortunately I think this is going to become more and more. The big guys are pushing their luck and when you then add in commission based pay salesmen theres a recipe for con artists to pray. The thing is as a small guy we are seen as being in the wrong. But this happens in all forms of industry. Bet you in the next series of rouge traders there be a PV installer!

 

[gr7]

I agree there should be a method of reporting blatant non-adherence to the REAL code of conduct, I too have seen evidence of this and worry that the industry will be permanently damaged if something is not done soon.

 

[HotSpot]

I suppose time will tell in showing us how many teeth MCS and REAL actually have!

I just pray they don't turn out to be completely toothless!

I feel sorry for the victims of this scandalous practice. And I feel sorry for all the good honest guys who are trying their best to earn a decent living.

 

[edexlab]

I've seen quite a few quotes asking for 50 or 75% deposits I initially thought it had to be somebody on there 1st or 2nd job ,but it was a well established firm ,also a member of Real

 

[MCS Renewables]

Nothing happens even if you complain. REAL and the MCS bodies are just milking the cash cow and all the time sales and installation standards are dropping.
We know of an old lady who was told by a less than ideal salesman that she would generate even more as she had a lamppost outside her house!
We also lost a project to another national using kioto against our Sanyo, and we were £5K cheaper because their salesmen told her independents don't do the job properly!!!
Shame but nobody cares, the nationals can do and say what they like that's why next time my registration comes round I will be transferring to the cheapest Scheme , who ever it is !

 

[futurewired]

yes true mate and its not niceic, they do milk everything

 

[dansk]

Freaking joke, i hate reading stuff like this - why is it the small guy is the villan? they always take the word of a "mate" rather the word of the actual guy who owns the business and then comes to do the installation. Maybe they just think an independant should be cheaper or begrudge paying a large cheque to a 2 man band, god knows.

As for REAL, this is a sham, and i cant wait untill someone brings in another scheme, hint hint, come on someone start a rival consumer code.

Ive been registered for 4 months with REAL and ive already been selected for an audit, why dont the just leave me alone and go pick on some of the guys who really need inspecting.

 

[HotSpot]

Ive been registered for 4 months with REAL and ive already been selected for an audit, why dont the just leave me alone and go pick on some of the guys who really need inspecting.

It's a bit like tax inspections...they will investigate smaller guys because it's easier (and cheaper) to go through their accounts and find faults compared to the big guys!!!

 

[Ramjam]

If REAL are conducting these audits as frequently as they appear to then they will catch the rogues but it depends what they do when they catch them. If they simply issue a non compliance then they might as well just reduce their price and we can all have a REAL sticker on the van and do what we like. If they take serious noncompliance such as deposit over 25% or no SAP calc or no contract with cancellation terms and instruct awarding bodies to remove MCS then they will get respect and the industry will be fine. They need to record directors of companies struck off to stop them re-starting with a new name too.

I bet they go for a toothless non-compliance with a follow up visit in the future anyone care to bet against me?

 

[SRE]

What I find difficult is telling the customer that they can't have what some crummy salesman has told them they can have. We went to an older couple's home a couple of weeks ago and had to tell them that they could only get 2.2kwp instead of 4kwp on their roof and that moving their solar thermal from 5 years ago to a different part of the roof didn't mean they would be able to claim RHI in June. It looked like we were the bad guys not giving the customers what they wanted .. haven't got the sale so I'm guessing that at some point in the next few weeks some poor installer is going to turn up with 4kwp of panels and have a few left over! What made it worse was that the customer came to us as a referral from a satsified customer ... but they still didn't believe us

 

[dansk]

What I find difficult is telling the customer that they can't have what some crummy salesman has told them they can have. We went to an older couple's home a couple of weeks ago and had to tell them that they could only get 2.2kwp instead of 4kwp on their roof and that moving their solar thermal from 5 years ago to a different part of the roof didn't mean they would be able to claim RHI in June. It looked like we were the bad guys not giving the customers what they wanted .. haven't got the sale so I'm guessing that at some point in the next few weeks some poor installer is going to turn up with 4kwp of panels and have a few left over! What made it worse was that the customer came to us as a referral from a satsified customer ... but they still didn't believe us

It makes want to laugh or cry crap like that, well leave em to it mate, and then when they ring up in a few months "er hi there you came to give us a quote a few weeks ago, we would like to dicuss it further" you can go back with a smug feeling.

 

[poheZ]

What do we expect?
Consider this scenario:
MCS inspection on your own house, get accreditation. Join REAL.
Get your MCS cert through, leave REAL. Chuck the installs up for a bit of cash and dont bother with your Quality managment system and dont bother renewing your MCS a year later. Who is going to know?

 

[dansk]

What do we expect?
Consider this scenario:
MCS inspection on your own house, get accreditation. Join REAL.
Get your MCS cert through, leave REAL. Chuck the installs up for a bit of cash and dont bother with your Quality managment system and dont bother renewing your MCS a year later. Who is going to know?

Consider this:

Spend 3-4k on training and getting MCS (also 6 months of your life), anther few grand on a system for your own house to get accreddited on, then sack of the REAL membership, dont bother with your MCS and then go to see some customers and submit your quote along with 8 others, and win them over with your loyalty.

Not likley.

 

[Ramjam]

I just came back from a site survey for a couple who'd been given a reasonable quote by someone else but they had been told that they could heat thier house with electricity free of charge and they weren't impressed that my 1.7kWp system couldn't do that when the competitor's system could. A lengthy explanation of relative energy consumption followed at the end of which they mused about how hard it is to know who to believe!

 

[dansk]

Good god - (rolling my eyes) they really "f" it up for us - i had a good experiance at 9am yesterday, a bloody double booking, wife booked me for 9am and husband booked someone else for the same time...and i got there first followed by another knock at the door 2 minutes later.

what a laugh...not

 

[poheZ]

3-4k on training, crikey didnt cost me that!

 

[dansk]

You mustnt had any loss of earnings then!

 

[SRE]

We've only just started to take a wage and a small one at that and we were certified at the end of October! We'd have had no money for stock otherwise -still not vat registered either - but looking forward to rebate when it comes!!!

 

[njcuk]

Some really poor people quoting and giving very over optimistic figures. Currently, I am constantly following a company who say their 3.88 sharp poly system will produce over £2.2k a year with around 4400 kwh a year and the savings. And the inverter they use is better than any others as its start up voltage is lower. Does start up voltage really make them that much better? I thought the overall efficiency of and inverter was more important.

 

[SolarCity]

Do you know who the firm is? Report them. Those figures are, frankly, b*****s and it's utterly unethical for a firm to be using them.

Do you know what inverter it is that they use?

 

[njcuk]

Yes I know the firm, if it carries on I will. The firm may not realise they are over quoting the production, but I doubt it.

They may use two inverters, one was SEA Australia and then another customer said to me it was Phase - one.

Start up voltage is 150v.

 

[SolarCity]

Yes I know the firm, if it carries on I will. The firm may not realise they are over quoting the production, but I doubt it.

Whether they know it or not, they are misleading the customer. Like you, I doubt the over-estimating is a mistake.

 

[MCS Renewables]

Here is a link to Ideal solar and Everest getting ejected from REAL.

Solar companies suspended - February - 2011 - Which? News

Unfortunately Ideal have got their original subbies to get their own MCS so now Ideal Solar salesmen can say and do whatever they like........no change then ....so now they are completely outside the system and unpoliced.
You cannot blame REAL for this, as it is a massive loophole in the MCS system.

 

[SolarCity]

Unfortunately Ideal have got their original subbies to get their own MCS so now Ideal Solar salesmen can say and do whatever they like........no change then ....so now they are completely outside the system and unpoliced.
You cannot blame REAL for this, as it is a massive loophole in the MCS system.

Aren't the MCS firm (whoever they may be) ultimately still responsible for these salesmen even though they don't technically work for the same firm?

 

[HotSpot]

Aren't the MCS firm (whoever they may be) ultimately still responsible for these salesmen even though they don't technically work for the same firm?

Yes, I would have thought that the 'MCS' subbies now have the responsibility to provide the accurate quotes as they will be the ones signing the jobs off. I just can't understand how this could possibly work!!!

If this sort of behaviour is going on by Ideal/subbies I'm sure MCS would love to get stuck-in, if they found out.

 

[SRE]

Reported my first rogue seller to Real today who were really helpful and agreed to protect my anonymity. More than double the allowed discount, no details about solar modules and no inverter details could all have been produced by Mickey Mouse in Florida for all the customer knew. Cost is about 20% more than most other installers I know - although obviously that's nothing to do with REAL. These guys are doing mail drops in our area regularly.

 

[Ramjam]

If we want a clean and honest industry then we need to all play a part and report dodgy salesmen. We also need to lobby REAL and MCS to Ban for Life companies like Everest and British Gas who have no excuse for not complying fully. If a large firm like them can break the rules then get a slap on the wrist then the governing bodies are truly toothless.

 

[Markc]

If we want a clean and honest industry then we need to all play a part and report dodgy salesmen. We also need to lobby REAL and MCS to Ban for Life companies like Everest and British Gas who have no excuse for not complying fully. If a large firm like them can break the rules then get a slap on the wrist then the governing bodies are truly toothless.

I 100% agree BUT a life time ban to BG or Everest will never happen. Consider the amount of money these companies could spend on legal representation and the weight they have with government.

I agree we all need to do our part and I have also delivered material to REAL for them to investigate.

 

[Ramjam]

I appreciate your point but if they put it in the terms then if you join then you agree to the terms, cast 'em into the wilderness I say! Just because you're big doesn't mean that you have the right to rip people off and offer shabby overpriced systems.

Just imagine, they could be the first credible consumer focused regulatory body, that would work well for an emerging renewables market.

It's not like any of these big firms have taken any risks in order to take advantage of the opportunity. Most small businesses in this market have taken substantial risks to get qualified, buy tools and equipment and finance installations. It shouldn't be a god given right for big business to move sideways to steal market share, fine if they abide by the rules and act ethically but if they don't then burn 'em!

 

[Markc]

I agree they shouldn't get away with it. 100% with you it's just the case if anyone does stand up to them they will have a fight on their hands.

Look how many times British Gas has been on watchdog? Who still buys Gas from them or has their boiler serviced or even worse on some form of maintenance contract with them. Some people will ALWAYS go to the big names and they know it. What difference does it make if they spend fours hours with a customer and then rips them off IF the customer is happy with the service they have received?

WE can only say it's wrong as WE know it, the client probably will not. We know the rules and abide by them. (Some) Big companied know the rules but don't give a ----, the likely hood they will be caught out is slim, if they are they are given a slap on the wrist and sent on their way until the next time and so it goes on. A small company will probably not take the risk for exactly the reason you said. Cost to be registered in the first place, but if they do I expect the governing bodies will come down far harder on them than the big boys.

For any scheme to be proven to have teeth examples must be made. No probation. No second chances. One strike and you're out and can not reapply for another year (or more).

I was criticised by our REAL auditor for having the word "Harmful" before CO2 emissions on my website and flyers. I was told to remove the word from my website and not distribute our flyers anymore until amended. My flyers went in the bin and our website was edited. Next time you go looking on the big boys websites make a note of that one word and you will see my point. Take the opportunity to notify REAL about a website using that word and see what happens. Come back to me if something does happen. Now take a small company website and do the same and see what happens!

I'm sorry to be skeptical on REAL but so far as I see it they are there for a logo on the letter head and certificate in the folder and little more. Just another few hundred quid a year on fees.

 

[Ramjam]

They could if they had the balls, make this the best, most honest industry and create positive publicity for all the honest members. I'd love to see someone from Real on the Forum engaging with the members who pay their wages....challenge !!!!

 

[jtw11373]

Here in California as soon as a company does a job in the neighborhood, be it window replacement, heaters, solar panels, swimming pools, you name it, they send their salesmen around to everybody living near by offering a super deal because they are all ready in the area, when truth be told, they are usually a local company that has maybe 15 minutes of travel time to get to the job. It's amazing how gullible old people are, they always end up victims of fraud, you'd think it would be the opposite after so many years of living with salesmen everywhere. Buyer beware!
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[Markc]

They could if they had the balls, make this the best, most honest industry and create positive publicity for all the honest members. I'd love to see someone from Real on the Forum engaging with the members who pay their wages....challenge !!!!

They know we're here and at UK Solar Installers....I've told then and shown them the sites!