Spur off a 3036 protected circuit?

[alanl]

I've been asked to add a spur (or possibly extend the ring) on a BS 3036 protected circuit.
Dead basic job, just needs an extra socket in a bedroom.

From my understanding, this can be put down as a Minor Works, but all sockets now have to be RCD protected to comply with the 17th, so if I'm putting in a new socket, does this circuit have to be modified to have RCD protection?

If so, then would it be classed acceptable to move the existing socket 6 feet to the other side of the room, without adding RCD protection?

(the reason being, the customer will not pay for a CU upgrade)

On a similar point, the TN-C-S incomer has a 10mm cable from the MET to the Fusebox. Do I need to upgrade this to 16mm when adding the socket?

Thanks
Alan.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Technically yes you should be including RCD protection,however as you will not be leaving the install in a worse condition than it is now,the socket is not liable to supply equipment outdoors,and prior to 2008 you would not have needed to provide RCD protection......IMO you could just add the socket and note it as a departure based on the clients refusal to have the system upgraded.
If there are no signs of any problems with the 10mm you could also note that as a departure,but is there any main bonding?.....you cant ignore that.

 

[TPES]

Technically yes you should be including RCD protection,however as you will not be leaving the install in a worse condition than it is now,the socket is not liable to supply equipment outdoors,and prior to 2008 you would not have needed to provide RCD protection......IMO you could just add the socket and note it as a departure based on the clients refusal to have the system upgraded.
If there are no signs of any problems with the 10mm you could also note that as a departure,but is there any main bonding?.....you cant ignore that.

A bit confused by this..

RCD's are required but if the customer doesn't want to pay for it you would just note it on the cert and install it anyway

What if there is no bonding?? Why wouldn't you just note this on the cert and install anyway? Just as you did the RCD..

It's just the same

There both required and should be done regardless in my eyes..

 

[Bradzz]

But dont forget the customer wont pay, so would input under advice, and in a letter, then compolete the works, cover all areas, but you cant do work for free. even if it does not conform even if it is dangerous.
In my books if you dont pay you dont get the work done. just put it in as advised customer, get them to sign copy.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

A bit confused by this..

RCD's are required but if the customer doesn't want to pay for it you would just note it on the cert and install it anywayAn RCD would not have been required for this install prior to 2008,IMO an additional socket in a bedroom not on an RCD when none of the others in the property are on an RCD is not a major issue....Bs 7671 is not statutory,if a departure can be justified you are not obliged to comply

What if there is no bonding?? Why wouldn't you just note this on the cert and install anyway? Just as you did the RCD..

It's just the sameNo it isnt,main bonding is an essential safety requirement in the installation as described and always has been,RCD protection is not an essential safety requirement for the install as described

There both required and should be done regardless in my eyes..

............................

 

[Deleted member 9648]

But dont forget the customer wont pay, so would input under advice, and in a letter, then compolete the works, cover all areas, but you cant do work for free. even if it does not conform even if it is dangerous.
In my books if you dont pay you dont get the work done. just put it in as advised customer, get them to sign copy.

Lack of main bonding would be a safety issue.......lack of RCD for the install as described would not be,remember prior to 2008 this would not have required an RCD,are all installs before that date unsafe??
No installation should be left in a dangerous state,if it will be dont do the work.

 

[i=p/u]

just add rcd incorparated into socket thingy

 

[Deleted member 9648]

just add rcd incorparated into socket thingy

So one socket in a bedroom will have an RCD just to comply with the regs...but none of the others in the house will be RCD protected??.......an option yes,but it doesnt really make sense.
My understanding is that the new regs due out soon will be addressing this issue in order to prevent this sort of sillyness.

 

[londonlec]

RCD and enclosure beside CU?

 

[Octopus]

So one socket in a bedroom will have an RCD just to comply with the regs...but none of the others in the house will be RCD protected??.......an option yes,but it doesnt really make sense.
My understanding is that the new regs due out soon will be addressing this issue in order to prevent this sort of sillyness.

I agree, this is sillyness. Fitting a socket in an upstairs bedroom in a house where there are NO RCD's is simply madness. Lets hope the regs update clears this up because this sillyness is what allows pub electricians to thrive.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I agree, this is sillyness. Fitting a socket in an upstairs bedroom in a house where there are NO RCD's is simply madness. Lets hope the regs update clears this up because this sillyness is what allows pub electricians to thrive.

If I read you correctly you are stating that fitting a socket upstairs with no RCD is madness?......presumably then you would condemn all installations prior to 2008 as unsafe?

 

[Bradzz]

so you are saying you work for free, or are you saying leave well alone if they dont want to pay to bring install to regulation standards.

 

[pushrod]

If I read you correctly you are stating that fitting a socket upstairs with no RCD is madness?......presumably then you would condemn all installations prior to 2008 as unsafe?

I'm guessing ie there is a "not" missing from Murdoch's post - ie not fitting

 

[pushrod]

so you are saying you work for free, or are you saying leave well alone if they dont want to pay to bring install to regulation standards.

either put the cost of the main bonding into the quote and do it it even though not asked for, or leave the whole job alone would be my feeling.

 

[Bradzz]

I think it should be a standard set out buy the home owners insurance, if the dont have a current certificate, well within the allowed time of last ten years, then no insurance cover, same as MOT and TAX, i know you can purchase car insurance without this but you cant drive your car, as soon as you do insurance becomes invalid, all shops should have to be the same, this would take us all back to the 80s when money was flooding out of our pockets in the electrical trade. WAVE DREAM WAVE Sorry lads i was just dreaming a little, LOL.

 

[Octopus]

I agree, this is sillyness. Fitting a socket in an upstairs bedroom in a house where there are NO RCD's is simply madness. Lets hope the regs update clears this up because this sillyness is what allows pub electricians to thrive.

Ok. The sentance should read "fitting a RCD socket in an upstairs bedroom in a house where there are NO RCD's is simple madness". I.E. I don't think that a new socket in this situation needs a RCD.

Thats my view. Tin hat on.

PS. Sorry should have read post more carefully!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I agree.....sorry to jump on you a bit,misinterpreted your post...but we appear to be singing the same tune!!

 

[Octopus]

I agree.....sorry to jump on you a bit,misinterpreted your post...but we appear to be singing the same tune!!

.

No problem, no offence was "felt".

 

[SirKit Breaker]

This is a classic case of a "Grey area". Yes BS7671 is not statutory, but unfortunately Part P is, and this states that BS7671 is the benchmark to comply. This means we are stuck between a rock and a hard place once again.

I fully agree with all the post's telling the OP to do the job, because that is what i would do.

I have heard that in AM1 to BS7671:2008 we are going to be allowed to do this type of work, as the IET in their infinite wisdom have decided that we as Electricians are clever enough to be able to risk assess and install as required.

Cheers..........Howard

 

[Guest123]

Lets hope the regs update clears this up because this sillyness is what allows pub electricians to thrive.

It will.

 

[timo1]

I would fit an RCD socket you can get them for £16 and I feel more comfortable complying with the regs even if it does seem over the top. I have added the RCD at cost before now, usually when I explain why they are ok with the bit extra.

 

[pushrod]

I would fit an RCD socket you can get them for £16 and I feel more comfortable complying with the regs even if it does seem over the top. I have added the RCD at cost before now, usually when I explain why they are ok with the bit extra.

Unless you are surface mounting the cable to it you could still be going against BS7671.

 

[Guest123]

Wait another 4 weeks, no issue at all then.

 

[paturback]

Yes it seems chapter 52 Amendment 1 introduces exceptions for selv or pelv and minor works so after several years of being told sockets need to be RCD protected we are now being told its not required! Unless its not minor works or selv or pelv that is, confused we soon will be.
Here's Cronshaw's Webinar explaining the changes is it just me or do i detect a note of reticence?

 

[Bradzz]

Draft for Public Comment - BS 7671/AMD 1 - IET Electrical



right click on the left side off screen to down load a DPC copy

 

[timo1]

Unless you are surface mounting the cable to it you could still be going against BS7671.

Hi Pushrod, not doubting you but why would that be? I thought the RCD protecting the cable overcame the issues of cable depth etc.. In any case I would have said it is safer than none at all?

 

[pushrod]

Hi Pushrod, not doubting you but why would that be? I thought the RCD protecting the cable overcame the issues of cable depth etc.. In any case I would have said it is safer than none at all?

I agree that rcd protecting the spur/cable would be fine, but you mentioned fitting an "rcd socket" in your post - if it was just something like THIS
then that would not protect the cable to it. New cable should, according to BS7671, be either deeper than 50mm or surface mounted, etc, or have rcd protection. ie normally chased in cable would still be going against the regs even though the socket was rcd protected and so ok An rcd fcu like THIS would probs be the better choice for the job.

 

[iconnect]

Thats what I was going to say RCD spur then feed normal socket from that then its all good !! The RCD socket would only protect plug onwards,the bonding just note on cert.

 

[MFHEng]

My understanding is that the new regs due out soon will be addressing this issue in order to prevent this sort of sillyness.

The relaxing of the standard to allow extra (non rcd)sockets to be fitted to non rcd circuits and mark it on the minor works as risk assessed, has been removed from AMD1 due to sustained objections from several JPEL64 member organisations.

The socket in question will require RCD protection

 

[Engineer54]

So, ....the nonsense an silliness will continue!! Who are these Wally's??

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Thats what I was going to say RCD spur then feed normal socket from that then its all good !! The RCD socket would only protect plug onwards,the bonding just note on cert.

No main bonding and all's good??.....me thinks your priorities on this are a bit --- over --- if you will insist on one socket upstairs being on a RCD (FCU!!)....and yet ignore the essentials.
Presumably you are going to use the RCD -FCU to feed the socket so that ...1. The socket is RCD protected..and 2. The buried cable to the socket is also RCD protected?
What about the buried cable to your FCU?...or is that going to be surface?
If you are going down this ridiculous road for ONE socket upstairs TBH you may as well install an RCD in an enclosure alongside the DB.
It is worth bearing in mind that RCD protection to sockets is only required for sockets intended for general use......if this proposed additional socket was intended for a specific item of equipment such as a computer ,and labelled as such ,it would still meet the requirements with no RCD protection....411.3.3 (b)

 

[pushrod]

With reference to earthing and bonding this answer from the ESC might be of interest , it's Q5

Can I carry out an alteration or addition to an existing installation that has inadequate earthing and/or bonding arrangements?

No. Any alteration or addition to an existing installation must comply with the current edition of BS 7671 (including any amendments). This requires any earthing and bonding arrangements upon which the alteration or addition relies for safety to be adequate. Any exposed-conductive-parts of the new work must not be simultaneously accessible with exposed-conductive-parts of the existing installation that are not connected to the same earthing system.




Regulation number(s)

• 131.8
• 633.2
• 411.3.1.1