Start of something

[Robinson]

Hi just quick question. which once answered could trigger a few more

Do you consider a care home for elderly Domestic or commercial.?

Would you choose to omit use of RCD protection reason given is that its Commercial not domestic and only domestic needs RCD
(thats what a sparks has said to a client)

 

[plugsandsparks]

eek, hope not as i have been installed RCDs left right and centre with my commercial / industrial clients.

As its a dwelling, has special locations etc i think you are going to need 7671 and probably a few more BSs for EM, Fire, security that is standard in the commercial world.

 

[Robinson]

Yes this is of course the case, i mean it aint a shop. there loads elderly who are like children touching and doing thing you would norm do unless very drunk or on something, so there has to be protection in place for this.
Would a kitchen still be special location? or could it be considered under 411.3.3 a skilled person? ie contract chefs etc etc

 

[Robinson]

eek, hope not as i have been installed RCDs left right and centre with my commercial / industrial clients.

what did you mean by this, didnt quite catch ya drift

 

[polo1]

It's without doubt, to use your phrase, commercial, with a high risk client group - high risk from the point of view of being limited in their capacity to respond quickly to a fire (Think Rosepark Nursing Home on the outskirts of Glasgow). The local council may also apply requirements if they are providing funding. Decisions on additional protection should, in my view, be based around a proper risk assessment.

Regards.

 

[Guest55]

a care home / nursing home is a commercial installation as rooms & patient care is rented out for payment - in other words its a business ,
but that doesnt mean it has to any less safe than a domestic.
cables in walls may not need to be rcd protected as the building duty-holder will have control of what work is done in the premises , but sockets and bathroom circuits will need additional protection due to the vulnerable persons that inhabit the home.
Thorough risk assessment is the name of the game here.

 

[Guest55]

polo beat me to it lol.

 

[Robinson]

So kitchen on this sort of premisis special location?

 

[SirKit Breaker]

The type of premises you describe is definitely Commercial. As pointed out already, there will be other considerations to take into account, and you will need to contact the relevant licensing authority to find out what they require in order for the business to meet the obligations of their licence.

With regard to RCD protection, refer to reg 415.1.1. This will give you the info that you require for RCD protection when used as additional protection. If you look a bit further into it, you will find that ALL general purpose socket outlets require RCD protection, irrespective of location and application, and must meet 415.1.1. there are exceptions, but you will have to look at those as well.

For general purpose sockets, it is acceptable to use RCD outlets rather than RCD protection to the circuit, but this depends on how things are installed, and who will be maintaining the place, again a trip into the regs is called for.

The regs apply to different environments in different ways, and although a care home is a commercial enterprise, it is a domestic environment, so i would apply the regs accordingly, common sense will always over rule the rule book.

The "Electrician" who states that RCD's are not required in Commercial/Industrial applications, should get back to his day job sweeping the streets, and leave electrical matters to those who know and can find out.

Cheers...........H

PS No offence to street sweepers intended, you do a good job.

 

[Guest55]

So kitchen on this sort of premisis special location?

not according to the building regs , no.

 

[Robinson]

a thought i picked up from spinlondon on a post.

The reason BS7671 allows an exception to the Regulation requiring amongst other's, of RCD protection for socket-outlets.
Is quite simply because of EAWR.
It is a statutory requirement that any employee be either skilled or instructed.
Here is the relevant Regulation:
"16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work."
If it is part of an employee's duties to use a socket-outlet. then they must be either skilled or instructed.
Certain establishments, such as hotels or internet cafes, would require RCD protection on socket-outlets that could be used by guests and patrons.
The exception however does not apply to socket-outlets that are used for mobile equipement outdoors.

 

[Guest55]

robinson ,
you have not told us your role at the nursing home or the purpose of your enquiry.
both would help.

 

[Sintra]

not according to the building regs , no.

Or BS 7671

 

[Robinson]

LOL yes sure...i went to look at a fault. shocks from sockets in kitchen. fault happened just after installations of a new extract hood. ......so on investigation found multiple faults. in fact the place is all over the shop. add on upon add on....was horrrendous. Sorted the shock issues . but on investigations i saw what the joker had done when installing the new BIG commercial extract hood with EM gas shut off valve. The so called sparks had basically just spurred of a socket in utility room which already had three t&e's in it. wedged in there. Ok i thought bit of a joker....but when i started testing the can of worms opened up. it wasnt a ring. the neutral was broken (end to end) there was a line to neutral IR fault like 0.09 And the circuit basically supplied the lounge , tennants bedrooms, office lighting....was ALLLLL OVER MAN. managed to get floor up that had just been lifted and found a mountain of Jb's smashed sockets rusted still live..all sorts....made safe few errors i could see ......

so i have noted all this to client and said he needs a really good ECIR. My point though was the sparks who added this fan unit to this circuit just boshed it on. couldnt of tested Initial varification none of it or he would of said "maybe i wont use this circuit" ...he didnt label board with details, gave no cert . nothing in bosh out.

so i stated i felt that the pre sparks didnt use any common sense and showed a disregard for good practice

the sparks has now return with a letter moaning that he did it all right and wants his money....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

eek, hope not as i have been installed RCDs left right and centre with my commercial / industrial clients.

As its a dwelling, has special locations etc i think you are going to need 7671 and probably a few more BSs for EM, Fire, security that is standard in the commercial world.

wether its a domestic, commercial or industrial is neither here nor there....if it warrents RCD...then you do it....if it dont...then why go to expense, hassle and the risk of nuisance tripping when all the old girls start tryin to plug in all the deco toasters and kettles they got before erny (their late beloved) joined up....(around 1939..ish)