Stepping into PV

[Snapester]

Am i right in believing that if i do the PV installer course with the NICEIC £600?? then i can register with their scheme to install or do i need to do the MCS accreditation course also?
Thanks

 

[infinity]

the £600 course is the easy bit! Its the paper trail that follows that will have you running for your life....

 

[Snapester]

Tell me more??

 

[MrKnowItAll]

The course you have probably looked at will be bundled with a Quality Management System course. This is usually half a day explaining how the quality management system can be created for your own company.

I would strongly suggest you look at Appendix A of MCS001, as these clauses make up the different sections of the Quality Management System you would need to produce for your MCS inspection.

The QMS course you do is a very good place to start, however, it's not one size fits all. Some people are better at paperwork and procedures than others. If you're on your own and you need more help, you can find other courses to help you along the way. There are also consultants who can assist with the creation of your QMS, but the most popular/cheapest option isn't always the best for you.

You can find MCS001 here The Microgeneration Certification Scheme - Installers

 

[LightGEN]

Before spending the money, bare in mind that the solar industry has a significant over supply of installation companies, for the level of installations occuring at the moment. Visit the DECC solar installations statistics page, where you'll see that approximately 2500 systems are being installed per week, then note that there are some 4500 MCS registered installation companies - a great many companies are not getting any solar installation work at the moment.

 

[moggy1968]

to get yourself fully registered and compliant will cost a lot more than £600.
Admittedly, kit prices are less now, but I would say it cost me around 10grand and 6 months to go through the process.
That included my PV course, ELECSA membership, REAL membership, Gemserve membership, specialist tools and equipment.
Then, when I got my MCS001 I realised how difficult the paperwork was going to be so went on another course for that.
Then I had to pay for a system to be installed for inspection.
If you get through all that and manage to secure an install then you'll also need the money to pay for the kit for that upfront because most suppliers won't give you credit unless you have already done some business with them.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned on here is that also now the margins are so tight you may find it difficult to make any profit on your first few jobs because the install will take you longer, unless you can get some experienced help.
Your first ten jobs will take you twice as long as your second ten, which will take you twice as long as your 3rd ten.
That makes it more and more difficult for those coming in to the business.

Thats before you get onto things like company launch costs, website, stationary etc etc.

 

[Snapester]

Wow I didn't realise it was so envolved the installs look fairly simple, but the paperwork and memberships looks like a drag!

 

[SRE]

and don't forget the vat. Every job you buy in you pay 20% on and sell on to the customer @ 15%, in the days when we used to make a living out of pv you could just about hold out until the vat man paid you back each quarter but now we're using our business reserves every quarter to subsidise the vat payments. We were well and truly caught out with this when we first started and it nearly finished us in the first 6 months. I'd hate to do it now without a few grand in the bank to sort out cashflow.

Oh and we didn't take any salaries for the first 6 months - no spare cash available, but we had savings to live off.

 

[finchy]

Solar is a hobbie at the moment for me, thier isn't enough return to call it a business ! Its Like restoring a classic car a lot of cost and effort for no financial return just kudos. If you roll that way :crazy: !

 

[jason121]

and don't forget the vat. Every job you buy in you pay 20% on and sell on to the customer @ 15%, in the days when we used to make a living out of pv you could just about hold out until the vat man paid you back each quarter but now we're using our business reserves every quarter to subsidise the vat payments. We were well and truly caught out with this when we first started and it nearly finished us in the first 6 months. I'd hate to do it now without a few grand in the bank to sort out cashflow.

Oh and we didn't take any salaries for the first 6 months - no spare cash available, but we had savings to live off.

Should that of been 5%

 

[SRE]

Should that of been 5%

Yes - winds me up even writing about it :angry_smile:

 

[jason121]

you had me worried :cuss:

 

[LightGEN]

the vat man paid you back each quarter but now we're using our business reserves every quarter

Is there some reason you haven't opted for monthly VAT returns?

 

[SRE]

By the time I'd got it sorted out (6 months to get registered)and got the 1st lot of cash back I'd got past the worst and the refund every quarter more than covers my CT so it works quite well for us now.

 

[Worcester]

Installed another 2 ImmerSUN's today , neither of them our installs, on BOTH the array 10mm earth had been linked into the existing PME system. One had no DC isolators on a SMA SB4000TL, the other used 2.5mm figure of 8 chinese T&E, neither had structurals calcs done, neither had recieved a Building Regs certificate, both were connected through dedicated CU's with RCD's (good - except--) - one had a spare way in it, the other (SB4000TL) was connected though a double pole 25A 30ma RCD (not RCBO), no MCB, one so close to the edges and ridge a good northerly wind would put great strain on the roof.

I'm not saying we get everything right every time, and I sure if you wanted to you could find somethings you'd do differently on our jobs, however if anyone that thinks "the installs look fairly simple" - think again!

 

[jason121]

My MCS inspector told me that you dont always need a structual calc and my first MCS inspector never mentioned bonding to the array, My teacher for solar thermal who is a qualified installer for PV also mention that bonding to earth stake was wrong
Isn't the DTI regs just a guide not statutory regs, just a comment so dont bite my head off:62:

 

[Worcester]

Don;t want to get into discussion as to the rights and wrongs of these installs, bonding, calcs etc here, - lots of other threads on those. The purpose was to point out - it isn't simple, in fact your very comments point out just how much is debatable and down to experience and interpretation. On the one with no MCB though that is definately wrong as there is no protection to the cable. We advised him accordingly.

 

[MrKnowItAll]

Agree with all the above from Worcester. There's a lot of information about bonding, rcd protection etc in the dti guide. For someone who hasn't been on a pv course, a solid read of the dti will give you a good deal of information regarding the technical nature.

 

[moggy1968]

Don;t want to get into discussion as to the rights and wrongs of these installs, bonding, calcs etc here, - lots of other threads on those. The purpose was to point out - it isn't simple, in fact your very comments point out just how much is debatable and down to experience and interpretation. On the one with no MCB though that is definately wrong as there is no protection to the cable. We advised him accordingly.

it's a suprisingly common misconception though, because the RCD has an overload rating on it people think thats overload protection, not rrealising thats just the RCDs breaking point and you still need an MCB (or RCBO)

 

[yellowvanman]

Installed another 2 ImmerSUN's today , neither of them our installs, on BOTH the array 10mm earth had been linked into the existing PME system. One had no DC isolators on a SMA SB4000TL, the other used 2.5mm figure of 8 chinese T&E, neither had structurals calcs done, neither had recieved a Building Regs certificate, both were connected through dedicated CU's with RCD's (good - except--) - one had a spare way in it, the other (SB4000TL) was connected though a double pole 25A 30ma RCD (not RCBO), no MCB, one so close to the edges and ridge a good northerly wind would put great strain on the roof.

Did you highlight all the short comings to the customer?

 

[Worcester]

Did you highlight all the short comings to the customer?

As politely as we possibly could, you know what people atre like, these are their darlings, they are really proud of them and they won't take comment / criticism likely. What we did do is point out that we wouldn't have done the various items that way and why, the RCD however we were a lot stronger on, and advised him to contact a local qualified electrcian immediately.

If any were dangerous, or would have caused imminent problems, it would have been different - like the RCD. We did advise them about nusiance tripping etc, however as both were on their own CU's they should only trip themselves. Also things like when you come to sell you'll need the building regs certifcates and copies of the calcs, so advised them to contact their respective suppliers and get them from them. Not really a lot more they can do after the event, unless they are unhappy.