Swimming Pool HELP

[dragon-av]

Right chaps I have a job next week which includes all the normal stuff......

The property has an indoor pool in freestanding building in the garden, It looks lates 80's early nineties construction, once you are through the door the pool is open water at the door end are 4 cubicles panelled walls bu no ceiling! 2 contain shower trays, one is a WC and the 4th (nearest the water) has the boiler, pool pump, a 12V 25A Transformer! and a load of spurs! on the wall between the WC and the "plant" is anormal double socket, the pool room has its own panel (above the entrance door) its full and i am pretty sure not RCBO/RCD....

Now I need to install an amplifier in the pool area to run 2 pairs of speakers one in the pool and one outside for the terrace.

HELP! IMO the house needs a rewire as the previous owners had some bad work done the new owner aren't having a full rewire.

Does the plant room count as a special location? Can i use the existing crazy dangerous socket? Can i fit an IP rated socket in the plantroom?

40+ Views and not one comment? Anybody care to assist?

 

[Yooj]

Where is the supply to the pool house, and specifically, the supply earth, is it TT, TNS, TNCS? If TNCS, has the earth been exported fromt he house...is the pool building connected to the house, or is it a detached pool house? If TNCS, then there is a recommendation of an earth mat/electrode connected to bonding

If the existing installation is not up to standard in terms of safety, then I would make sure that you advise the householder...however, everything that you install will need to be 17th edition or to an equivalent safety standard.

Speaker in pool must be SELV, with SELV supply outside of all zones, and the speaker MUST be stipulated for its intended use by the manufacturer.

There are some other things...however, I suggest that you read Section 702 of the regs, and then read it again, and then once more for good measure, as this is a minefield because you have an existing installation.

I would steer clear of the socket by the pool...however, you can have a socket in Zone 1 as long as it is class 2, at least 1.25m from the pool edge, is 0.3m above the floor and it is either SELV, RCD protected or electrically separated.

Yooj

 

[dragon-av]

HI Yooj, the spekaers are not mains powered they are passive speakers driven by an amplifier. The speakers are exterior grade so no problem there and will be mounted above 1.25 (actually about 2m from pool level) its the amplifier i am having issues with.

The pool room is detached from house and fed from a small garage type dist board over the door. I ahvent checked the earthing situation.

I have emailed the owner saying i need to go through the implications with him, previously i have worked on much more pools where the pool plant has been in a seperate room not accessible from the pool but an exterior door (much better idea) The wiring looks a complete mess and has been added to and changed several times since construction.

Normally i would either locate the amp in the house but being a detached pool I cant unless i lift the Patio to run the cables.

Any one know of anywhere you can get "LARGE" IPx6/7 enclosures I need a double socket in the area and would ideally mount this in a large sealed enclosure but this will cook the AMP unless it has a heat sink...The only othe roption is the ceiling void of the building which i havent been in but i thought with pools that was still zone1

 

[Yooj]

A word of caution on the speakers...even though they are passive, they have the potential to introduce mains voltage into zone 1...This needs to be factored in to your design.

Try these guys for the enclosure: CE-TEK - Controls & Enclosure Technik Ltd

Not sure about the ceiling void being zone 1...I don't have the regs to hand...will look later and post.

Yooj

 

[dragon-av]

A word of caution on the speakers...even though they are passive, they have the potential to introduce mains voltage into zone 1...

How? Unless someone Drove a Nail through the amp and managed to short the mains input with speaker output, (an unlikely fault condition) I cant see how the speaker could become live. as voltage and current flow to speakers is variable with the signal its impossible to classify as a normal AC or DC supply the Amp is 240V AC with internal AC to DC converter and DC to DC coverter to drive the actual OPamps for the output stage. SELV is under 70V DC? Only commercial Power amps would have a voltage near 50V

 

[ghost]

Dragon, as I have said many times before, without actually seeing the job or looking at drawings or photos it is very difficult to comment on the job and offer constructive advice. However, reading the basics you have listed, this job sounds like a potential liability. If you intend to make any modifications to the circuits you have to sign for them. I would probably walk away from this job on the info you have given. However, if you are just plugging into existing circuits this is a completely different situation. Just remember a pool location is a special location, therefore requires the relevent IP ratings. I did read correctly, a normal BS 1363 socket outlet in the pool area?? Oh dear, not good.
As for the speakers, I have installed waterproof passive speakers in pool areas before, never been an issue with the relevant amplifiers located away from the pool area.

 

[dragon-av]

However, if you are just plugging into existing circuits this is a completely different situation. Just remember a pool location is a special location, therefore requires the relevent IP ratings. I did read correctly, a normal BS 1363 socket outlet in the pool area?? Oh dear, not good.
As for the speakers, I have installed waterproof passive speakers in pool areas before, never been an issue with the relevant amplifiers located away from the pool area.

Thats the issue I can plug intot he existing circuit, a normal socket in pool area!

OR do something properly which is alot safer! But cant sign it off.... I wont do the electrical work as its not my profession. The Amp will sit away from the pool area in a safe lcoation. I will take some pics next time i am there.

 

[Yooj]

How? Unless someone Drove a Nail through the amp and managed to short the mains input with speaker output, (an unlikely fault condition) I cant see how the speaker could become live. as voltage and current flow to speakers is variable with the signal its impossible to classify as a normal AC or DC supply the Amp is 240V AC with internal AC to DC converter and DC to DC coverter to drive the actual OPamps for the output stage. SELV is under 70V DC? Only commercial Power amps would have a voltage near 50V

Hi, sorry, I did not explain myself enough...Essentially the AV cabling will required to be physically separated from any other electrical services...If you do have the regs, have a look in section 528 - PROXIMITY OF WIRING SYSTEMS TO OTHER SERVICES...Essentially, it states that electrical and non-electrical services need to be suitably segregated physically. I am considering in this case that the AV cable is a non-electrical service and should be routed/contained in relative isolation to the electrical sevices.

Yooj

 

[dragon-av]

OF course we would never run AV cables near mains, it causes havoc with the AV system. I'll try and get some pictures later in the week

 

[Yooj]

Didn't mean to offend...It is just that this site is accessed by pros and amateurs alike as well as trainees, and it is good I think to give the fullest response as possible in terms of rationale for doing something as you can guarentee that there will be people with questions, etc, and when someone reads this thread at a future date, they might learn something, or at least it might prompt them to go and have a look at the regs...It certainly prompts me to go and take a look, if only to post a reg number.

Cheers

Yooj

 

[dragon-av]

Re: Swimming Pool HELP (photos added)

Right chaps some pics!

Light switches were dripping wet this morning (normal switches!)

 

[benji]

last pool i worked on we fitted clipsal 16amp 240v sw sockets ip65 round the sides of pool ,the cleaners had plug-in adaptors so they could just use 13amp plugs on their cleaning gear? i couldn,t believe it

yours benji