Teaser for the Newbies...

[Badged01]

....to abide by their own standards if they fit a 16amp plug .....

Taking on board your points, the only other thought I would have is that does fitting another plug invalidate the manuf guarantee on the equipment? Part of their 'protective' measure could be around only using a 16A plug it limits the loading?

 

[Tiny Spark]

the omission of OCP should only apply to fixed-wierd equipment.

Right think I need to get something cleared up as you are thinking the same as I was.
The reg quoted by darkwood states "With ref' to 430.1 note 4 which states any flexible cables connecting equipment by plugs and sockets to a fixed installation are outside the scope of the BS 7671"

Now reading the quote originally I was thinking the jet wash was part of a fixed install, However re-reading it the "connecting" part would suggest to me that the installation is fixed however the appliance does not has to be?

All this aside though I think everyone is in agreement that we would swap the 32A socket for a 16A socket and down rate the breaker.
Thats what I would do anyways LOL

 

[D Skelton]

Sorry, I'm a bit hung over, don't really know what's going on?! did I get it right or wrong DW?

 

[7029 dave]

If the manufacteres instructions state 16amp supply how can you see it acceptable to put it on a 32amp supply.?? Surely any1 on here would change the 32amp socket to 16amp and the mcb to a 16amp?

All the way on this.

 

[Darkwood]

I have a kip and my thread goes haywire lol...

Lets straighten a few things out here..

Their are alternative methods/solutions to this problem i.e. derating the socket and mcb been one of them, what the aim of the thread was trying to show is that when something is plugged into a circuit it often gets dragged into the same rules that chapter 43 makes applicable to protection against overcurrent. I have simply hi-lighted the clause that omits you from applying chapter 43 to the flex and plug of a jet wash in my example and because it was supplied by the manufacturer with an industrial plug top on it it is then within the standards of the jet wash design to be protected from overcurrent either by been a fixed load or having its own overload protection.

This dosn't apply to if you have a fuse in the plug top as this complicates things and wasn't going down that road in this thread.
Also i did already mention if manufacturers instructions state the plug max size plug then this also over-rules the theme of this thread, this is not to be confused with the manufacturers instructions saying the equipment requires a 16amp supply as this is expressing the design load the equipment runs on not that it must be fitted to a 16amp system.

In reflection of all this spending a fiver iin materials changing the plug top would be the best option as oppose to changing/wiring outlets with derated mcb's as in my set-up it wasn't needed

Basically the front end OCPD of a circuit is not what is relied on by the manufacturers of equipment and a 16amp outlet can be set up in a ring main fashion be it 230v or 400v, its the design and nature of the equipment that stops overcurrent situes from occurring.

I think my thread has proved its point that some insist on extending the rules of the BS7671 to the plugged equipment even though it has a specific note in the regs to express they are excluded mainly because they have their own codes of practice to ensure they are overload protected.

So yes you can up-rate the plug leaving the flex the same size as it was when it had the 16amp plug on it as the flex is chosen for max current the equipment will draw, this is why fridges have small flex 0.75 usually but ask for a 13amp fuse .... now surely the 32 amp ocpd and the 13amp plug fuse are greater ccc than the flex to the fridge?

 

[D Skelton]

Surely you have to make sure that the cable to the machine is protected from short circuit though. It would have been sized as such with a 16A plug making sure that it is never plugged in to a circuit above 20A but you now have a 1.5mm cable on a circuit rated at 32A or above. Overcurrent is protected against because you have a fixed max load, short circuit/earth fault on that cable needs to be protected against and you'd do this by ensuring that the cable is suitable for this. The machine will have its own protection within so it's purely the supply cable with the new 32A plug that I'm concerned about. Would you concur?

 

[Darkwood]

Yes D.Skelton i brought that up earlier and did express as such but usually isn't an issue if calculated it tends to be a concern with longer flexes though .... a good point but i had addressed it ii just forgot to put it in the above post. .

I will note here though you again are implementing chapter 43 to the equipment ... the S/C protection and regulations end at the socket outlet but yes you want to keep it as a back thought, think about plugging in a 20m extention and then plugging in a portable appliance i pretty much bet the zs dont comply at the point of use.

 

[Darkwood]

Note my Edit - D-skelton something to think about lol

 

[Fast&Rough]

Bare back flex open up socket cover stick each bared core in appropriate hole and hold in place with several wall plugs )
Job done !

 

[Silly Sausage]

I'd buy something...

......

 

[Tiny Spark]

I know nothing of appliance regs and so shall refrain from commenting as ime sure you know your stuff Dark Wood.

However I would stick to my guns on this one and stick with the 16A be it required or not.

As I said before I dont trust manufacturers the same as I dont trust the people who use a installation or appliances.
Lets face it people do some really stupid stuff!

So in my mind I would prefer to make it safe in such a way that it can only be used as intended and pluged into something as intended.
The installation will of been tested to ensure it is safe but I bet the appliance has not been properly.
This is highlighted by the amount of dodgy new appliances I have seen and the faults that we hear of.

We cant do much about appliances brought for a installation (except PAT of course) but we can make sure the installation is suitable for it.
Although ZS readings may not comply with what they should I would of thought these things have been considered when they wrote the PAT guidance notes.

I.e. if the earth resistance for a extension lead is bellow x amount then a appliance with a rating bellow y amount will still be safe to use?

So while we may be able to save a few pennys and just swap it for a 32A plug I dont see why anyone would.
At the end of the day its a 16A appliance fitted with a 16A plug by the manufacturer and therefore intended to be plugged into a 16A supply.

As a side note I remember many years ago as a apprentice we got in a Angle grinder fitted with a 32A 110v commando socket which was fed via a 2.5mm flex.
The guy I was with at the time got me to knock up a adapter which went from 32A to 16A.
Now although this puzzled me at the time I then relalised that it wouldn't matter as it was wired with 2.5mm flex and was protected by a 16A breaker but I did wonder why it was fitted with a 32A plug as standard?
Only just remembered about it but anyone care to share any ideas on that one?

 

[Darkwood]

Playing the safe game isn't a negative its good work ethics so no rebuttal on that point.

As for the Angle grinder ... alot of the larger 110v handheld Angle grinders run at 16-20 amps FLC hence 32amp manu' fitted plug ... its unlikely you would ever maintain flc constantly for long duration nor would 20amps trip the mcb anytime soon so although it would need the 32amp plug you are unlikely to have any issue with a 16amp one fitted even if incorrect for the job.... see loads of these on sight for the welders grinding down their work. The 2.5 flex is rated for the FLC of the grinder and will never be exceeded the plug top dosn't have to be lower than the flex rating in this case .....

Strangely you have just experienced an example here of what my thread is trying to point out that they follow a different BS standard and derating the plug in this case if the current is >16amps would be a fail when PA-Testing ...long term use may see heat damage too connections and 16amp rated equipment ...assuming it is rated at such currents.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Well it would pass the PAT as it wasn't changed, I just made a adpater to use it.
But the whole thing seems a little crazy to me really.
As you say I would only expect it to draw FLC when getting a severe hammering which I would say is bad practice to do.
But if you were to do such a thing then the cable would heat up pretty quickly while plugged into a 32A supply surely?

I would imagine if you were plugged into a 110V tranny with OL it would be fine but again its one of those things that makes you question why some things are built the way they are.
But as you say you can only assume that the manufacturers have worked these things out and tested them to relevant standards.

As for the dodgy foreign stuff well we all know about that LOL

 

[brightspark2010]

Never said it was fixed and if the manufacturer has an unfused plug fitted it is their responsibility to ensure the flex is suitable for the max current demand even in fault conditions ... they dont know that the socket you plug into is to BS standards and correctly installed so all overload protections necessary would be fitted to their appliance if deemed necessary, this is outside of the BS7671 so the manufacturers can't rely on an unknown system their product may be connected to, if they had a fused plug top this may provide the necessary protection if the item had a risk of running overloaded.

NO but they did make sure a 16amp commando socket was fitted so would be forgiven that thinking a 16amp circuit max woulde exist otherwise the user would be powering from an unsound supply.

Also as with all portable appliance by removing the original manufactured plug you would nullify your guarantee and insurance for the washer with that you have uprated whatthey percieve would only be a 16a supply

However what you are stating indicates there is no legal reason why you cant

 

[earache]

my thruppence worth, if I may,
As it is, bearing in mind what has been said regarding it being out of the scope of reg and assuming protection is built in to the appliance in the form of at least a fuse then i see no problem with changing the plug or using an adaptor.
The appliance will draw only what it needs and the installation has a mcb and likely a rcd also
If it was the other way round where you were connecting a 32A rated appliance to a 16A rated installation then i can see the problem and the circuit would need uprating.
Surely this situation could be likened to downrating a domestic 32A ring main in order to connect a pc or similar?

btw greetings all, I am a 'newb' so if I'm wrong

 

[Tiny Spark]

Why would you downrate a ring main for a pc??

 

[Hawk]

If you change the plug that the manufacturer has installed, then would the machine still be under warranty?

 

[markc123]

View attachment 21048

......

Why not make it you lazy manc?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Why not make it you lazy manc?

It was a hypothetical purchase! rrr:

 

[earache]

Why would you downrate a ring main for a pc??

exactly - why would you downrate a 32A circuit for a 16A pressure washer...

 

[Darkwood]

NO but they did make sure a 16amp commando socket was fitted so would be forgiven that thinking a 16amp circuit max woulde exist otherwise the user would be powering from an unsound supply.

Also as with all portable appliance by removing the original manufactured plug you would nullify your guarantee and insurance for the washer with that you have uprated whatthey percieve would only be a 16a supply

However what you are stating indicates there is no legal reason why you cant

What a load of crap removing the plug from an appliance does NOT! effect the guarantee its a myth and stems from some firms using illegal practices of saying their cant repair or replace the under warranty product as you have take the plug off...

If a plug was changed and due to incorrect or badly terminated new plug or spur etc the appliance suffered damage then and only then can the manufacturer void warranty and of course they need to prove it...

As the jet wash is load limited (fixed) fitting a 32amp plug cannot effect the use and safety of the product in any way and will not in this case be an issue that the plug over-rates the flec you connect to it.

 

[Darkwood]

my thruppence worth, if I may,
As it is, bearing in mind what has been said regarding it being out of the scope of reg and assuming protection is built in to the appliance in the form of at least a fuse then i see no problem with changing the plug or using an adaptor.
The appliance will draw only what it needs and the installation has a mcb and likely a rcd also
If it was the other way round where you were connecting a 32A rated appliance to a 16A rated installation then i can see the problem and the circuit would need uprating.
Surely this situation could be likened to downrating a domestic 32A ring main in order to connect a pc or similar?

btw greetings all, I am a 'newb' so if I'm wrong

Welcome to the forum yes you are correct in the first part but you can't liken it to a pc on a ring as those plugs are fused down and in some not all the fuse may protect from overload as well as S/C