Testing-Installation & periodic certificates

[simbin]

I've been asked to test an existing installation which isn't a problem-the problem is can a certificate be issued if all is fine BUT the consumer unit is to the 16th edition? It could turn into an expensive job to make everything RCD protected! The same question but in relation to periodic inspection certificates.....

 

[Notsosmart]

The PIR has a section where you report non compliance with the regulations whereby you have 4 options for remedial action to be taken; 1 being the most serious (basically a major issue has been discovered that requires immediate attention) & 4 is just non compliance with no action to be taken.

Really to effectively undertake testing, especially PIR's, you need 2391 but most of all experience. You are signing your name to a document that could come back to bite you if you are not carefull.

 

[simbin]

I've got 2391 but lacking experience!! When does a non compliance become a code 2,3 or 4??!! At some point all consumer units must be upto 17th edition standard...There is plenty of grey area's surrounding the change from 16th to 17th edition regs!

 

[crabapple]

put a code 1 and change the boards, else put in an extra RCD

 

[Yooj]

Unless it is unsafe, then code it as a code 4...i.e. complies with a previous version of the regs. Just because it is 15th, or 16th edition or whatever does not make it automatically unsafe.

Have a look at this: http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG4_08.pdf

It should give you some guidance.

Yooj

 

[sparks1234]

I've been asked to test an existing installation which isn't a problem-the problem is can a certificate be issued if all is fine BUT the consumer unit is to the 16th edition? It could turn into an expensive job to make everything RCD protected! The same question but in relation to periodic inspection certificates.....

I am trying to work out if you are testing an install for someone else as a EIC or testing an installation as a PIR, if it is as a PIR then it doesn't matter what is installed, you are only telling the client what they have installed with recommendations, its up to them what they do

 

[roukel01]

with ELECSA the official line is this...

No RCD protection to socket circuits - Code 2
No RCD protection to lighting etc... Code 4

The big grey area with PIR's is how far back in the regs is deemed unsafe?? At the present time, is a house built 2 years ago and wired to the latest 16th edition regs deemed as unsafe?? The answer is, of course not and therefore any areas you find that do not comply with current 17th edition regs would be marked down as a code 4... However, if you go to an installation that was wired in accordance to 15th edition regs is it still unsafe? even if all testing shows its ok. I've asked this question many times to college lecturers and ELECSA inspectors and non of them seem to give the same answer.

At the end of the day, its the responsibility of the person carrying out the inspection, if you feel the instalaltion is unsafe, report it as such.

 

[Notsosmart]

Which comes back to my comment about experience, to be able to determine what is safe & what should be flagged as requiring immediete attention

 

[Tester Steve]

Confused as to why different circuits need a different code! If the install conformed to 16th, then its a code 4, simples.

Steve.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Confused as to why different circuits need a different code! If the install conformed to 16th, then its a code 4, simples.

Steve.

Its pretty much down to the inspectors descretion, I wouls also go with the same difference for lighting and sockets due to the ability to plug an extension lead in for out doors use. This makes it potentially more unsafe than a static lighting circuit.................

 

[scotsparky]

with ELECSA the official line is this...

No RCD protection to socket circuits - Code 2
No RCD protection to lighting etc... Code 4

The big grey area with PIR's is how far back in the regs is deemed unsafe?? At the present time, is a house built 2 years ago and wired to the latest 16th edition regs deemed as unsafe?? The answer is, of course not and therefore any areas you find that do not comply with current 17th edition regs would be marked down as a code 4... However, if you go to an installation that was wired in accordance to 15th edition regs is it still unsafe? even if all testing shows its ok. I've asked this question many times to college lecturers and ELECSA inspectors and non of them seem to give the same answer.

At the end of the day, its the responsibility of the person carrying out the inspection, if you feel the instalaltion is unsafe, report it as such.

IMHO i would code 1 sockets that can be used outside equipotential zone as a 1 but i agree others a 2.

As its a PIR you are highlighting faults and then putting reccomendations the client doesnt have to do anything about it but as long as you have told him your covered.

 

[TPES]

with ELECSA the official line is this...

No RCD protection to socket circuits - Code 2
No RCD protection to lighting etc... Code 4

Who at elecsa has said this? have you seen it wrote down anywhere?.., I would of thought that No RCD protection would of been a code 4, it doesnt comply with 17th.
Doesnt make the install unsafe

So are the majority of you giving a 3036 board a code 2? and telling the customer that they need a new Dual RCD board before they get a satisfactory?

 

[yido81]

just out of curiosity, how much are people charging for pir's? i have been in the game ten years, and having gone on my own this year, ive got 6 two bed flats to do in january, which were converted about 10 years ago.

 

[Mac]

just out of curiosity, how much are people charging for pir's? i have been in the game ten years, and having gone on my own this year, ive got 6 two bed flats to do in january, which were converted about 10 years ago.

This was posted 5 days ago by someone on the forum.
http://www.electriciansforums.net/business-related/10046-niceic-periodics-20-quid.html

 

[Des 56]

This was posted 5 days ago by someone on the forum.
http://www.electriciansforums.net/business-related/10046-niceic-periodics-20-quid.html

Wow
That seems to bring home the need for some industry or government intervention to regularise PIRs

Not much reward for a genuine well trained spark,but beer money to some,surely this cant be right

 

[Mac]

Wow
That seems to bring home the need for some industry or government intervention to regularise PIRs

Not much reward for a genuine well trained spark,but beer money to some,surely this cant be right

I don't know mate,i personally have little experience with testing.If it is true,i can see a lot of people putting up their prices elsewhere on quotes for other things, and if sparks just do this for a living,how do they make a decent livingWhen you have prices like this chucked at you,this is when people start cutting corners

 

[SirKit Breaker]

It costs more than £20 in time just to do the bloody paperwork for a PIR if its done properly..........smacks of eastern europe if you ask me.

 

[TPES]

I'd say your looking at a minimum of £120+ for a small 2 bed semi/Flat. Depends on how many circuits i suppose, could vary.

Not sure if its best to price on the size of the house or the amount of circuits.

Stick to what your worth and dont back down to silly prices. You'll only suffer in the long run..

 

[Spudnik]

ANY code 1's are regarded as an unsatisfactory.

Code 2's and above normally satisfactory with recommendations etc.

 

[Yooj]

To sell a PIR at £20, then there is either a whole host of limitations, i.e. visual inspection only, or the spark is banking on getting the remedial work out of it and making their money there.

Yooj

 

[Graeme Harrold]

To sell a PIR at £20, then there is either a whole host of limitations, i.e. visual inspection only, or the spark is banking on getting the remedial work out of it and making their money there.

Yooj

Even visual, I dont move for less than £30/hr, and geting to and back from the job plus having a look is going to take way more than 40 mins...........Takes 15mins to have a cup of tea (initial verification of ring main!!!)

A £20 PIR is going to come back and bite the client at some point, 10% test minimum I would say..........

 

[Yooj]

Your dead right Graeme...The real limitation is that the spark is probably doing a drive-by (if going to the property at all), i.e. property not on fire....That's a Satisfactory!

Yooj

 

[TPES]

ANY code 1's are regarded as an unsatisfactory.

Code 2's and above normally satisfactory with recommendations etc.

I've always been told that code 1 or 2 is unsatisfactory.. 3 or 4 is satisfactory..

Are you all classing code 2's as satisfactory??

 

[Dub007]

This was posted 5 days ago by someone on the forum.
http://www.electriciansforums.net/business-related/10046-niceic-periodics-20-quid.html

If they think you can do a pir for that then i may as well pack my job in and go stack shelves in asda

 

[mazdaman]

I charge £140 for a PIR up to a 4 bedroom 2 floors 12 circuits, £25 per circuit there after.

Most expensive one I have done is £510

How can anyone charge £20? Is this a typo, should it be £200??

I charge £40 to change a light bulb.

 

[vectraj]

put a 2 in the section where you write up any other comments and say consumer unit not to 17th edition regulation

 

[jdr01red]

i have always gone with...

code 1 something causing imediate danger,i.e live cable hanging or broken fitting exposing conductive parts. defo a fail

code 2 something that is not presenting an imediate danger but is some thing that is unsafe and should not be ignored..i.e open ring reading, no 30mA rcd prot. on socs. fail

code 3 needs further investigation, i.e cant locate where a circuit goes,, pass but would recomend a re-visit

code 4 does not comply with current regs. i.e no rcd prot. on buried cables, no mixed colour warning notices, main bond more than 600mm from gas/water income...pass but long as youv flagged it up on the test sheet

 

[vbyrne]

I've been asked to test an existing installation which isn't a problem-the problem is can a certificate be issued if all is fine BUT the consumer unit is to the 16th edition? It could turn into an expensive job to make everything RCD protected! The same question but in relation to periodic inspection certificates.....

how do you mean expensive, you would heave to change the board or what size of a board is it??

 

[vectraj]

So when i come across an old fuse box ig-wylex rewireable fuse's type ! im right to recomend a new consumer unit like a split load double rcd as to 17th edition?? chances are the earth bonding is under sized also!!

 

[Des 56]

So when i come across an old fuse box ig-wylex rewireable fuse's type ! im right to recomend a new consumer unit like a split load double rcd as to 17th edition?? chances are the earth bonding is under sized also!!

You can recomend to my mrs that I take her shopping in a roller
That doesn't mean I either want or require that roller

You can't make sweeping statements about an installation based on the board being a particular type of permissable overcurrent just because its not what is usual at the moment

 

[nickblake]

they wont be charge £20 to do a periodic next year have you seen the new proposed form all 14 pages of it !!!

 

[Des 56]

My own view on the domestic shambles is,get rid of installation registration and regulate PIRs

At a guess I would estimate 85% of inspections are not worth the paper they are printed on
A claim for insurance and the competence of the inspector will be looked at

Insurance companies are happy to accept the toilet paper PIRs because it is a very conveniant excuse to not pay out if it came to the nitty gritty

 

[empress]

My own view on the domestic shambles is,get rid of installation registration and regulate PIRs

At a guess I would estimate 85% of inspections are not worth the paper they are printed on
A claim for insurance and the competence of the inspector will be looked at

Insurance companies are happy to accept the toilet paper PIRs because it is a very conveniant excuse to not pay out if it came to the nitty gritty

nail & head spring to mind.
the set up is a shambles with far to many grey area's.

 

[jammysparks]

The guys charging £20 a periodic are a disgrace and need shooting, it sounds cheep even if they are making them up after being emailed a piccy of the consumer unit by the client.

Sounds like bullcrap to me.