The Green Deal Again.

[Earthstore]

I have just been reading a little on this Green Deal, and I am not sure if we are all missing something here.
Rumors are being bounced around that to qualify for the Green Deal, houses will have to have reached band C requirement, I think I have grasped that bit, however, is this not just a complicated type of loan, that if you can prove any improvements will pay for themselves then there may be funding available?
So, what if you do not want the funding from this very complex, pretend to be green, save the world, politically correct, will turn into another shambles anyway loan. (pessimistic I know)

Is it not possible that if you just want to fund it yourself, as has been happening, you would not be part of this Green Deal anyway.

Your thoughts?

Earthstore Energy

 

[CES Heating]

Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. For the consumer it will create problems in selling homes as the new buyer will become liable for the existing loan, the price of the improvements will be overpriced by large organisations and creates the opportunity for mis-selling that they love to do (going by past schemes). For any would be installers there will another raft of legislation, certification and training "hoops" to jump through before you will be considered "worthy" of installing under this farce. This Green deal is only a deal for the companies behind it and is probably as far away from the green issue as someone could make it.
I would consider installing any green measures yourself or use your local trusted companies instead of getting ripped off by the big 6 and their bedmates.

 

[Somecamel]

Band C to get funding for the green deal? Sure your not getting this mixed up for the EPC of C for FITs come April?

 

[TedM]

The Green Deal is not linked to the current standard of your house. But the catch is you can only get funding that will be paid for in the savings that are made on your energy bills (the so-called 'Golden Rule'). If the costs of improvements are higher than the savings then you are not eligible for the GD.

And yes - it will all be controlled by accredited this, that and the other.

 

[SRE]

Ok, I failed my maths O level (yes I am that old ) but let's say you need to upgrade your central heating boiler to an A rated one and install controls it's going to cost 3k. It will save you potentially £250 a year so you pay your 3k back by paying £250/pa ( I believe the repayment has to be slightly less than the actual saving) so in year 2 you only owe £2750 BUT interest will be added at somewhere between 6 -7% pa - (doesn't that = £180 if it's 6% on a 3k loan??)

Now on a loan that size normally you're more than likely going to pay it off in 2 or 3 years at the most and your loan will be decreasing at a fairly rapid rate but at £250 a year - surely the interest paid by the time it's eventually paid for will be colossal and you'll nearly be ready for a new boiler anyway so what exactly have you gained as a householder other than a feel good factor for saving co2 .....

Am I missing something???

 

[gadgetfadget]

I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole! It's another big con!

 

[TedM]

If you have time have a read of this - http://www.e3g.org/images/uploads/E3G_Financing_the_Green_Deal_May_2011.pdf

 

[TedM]

DECCs Green Deal team are running a webchat tomorrow (Thursday at 12pm) - Green Deal Consultation webchat - Department of Energy and Climate Change

 

[CES Heating]

Ok, I failed my maths O level (yes I am that old ) but let's say you need to upgrade your central heating boiler to an A rated one and install controls it's going to cost 3k. It will save you potentially £250 a year so you pay your 3k back by paying £250/pa ( I believe the repayment has to be slightly less than the actual saving) so in year 2 you only owe £2750 BUT interest will be added at somewhere between 6 -7% pa - (doesn't that = £180 if it's 6% on a 3k loan??)

Now on a loan that size normally you're more than likely going to pay it off in 2 or 3 years at the most and your loan will be decreasing at a fairly rapid rate but at £250 a year - surely the interest paid by the time it's eventually paid for will be colossal and you'll nearly be ready for a new boiler anyway so what exactly have you gained as a householder other than a feel good factor for saving co2 .....

Am I missing something???

Nope, its a big scam orchestrated by energy firms flying under the Green flag... As a business I would avoid at all costs cos there's only gonna be one winner and it ain't called Joe Public.

 

[SRE]

I've only read the exec sumary but it looks as though it's saying that unles the Green Investment bank kick starts it with it's super credit rating that provides extra low interest loans then it's not going to be viable. I thought the GIB was struggling to get anywhere near the cash it needed for it to get going and in phase 2 it suggests rolling up the loans and selling them on to private finance - isn't that why we're up the spout economically now???

So just as the penny starts to drop that you can't spend money you haven't got the goevernment comes out with a brilliant idea to improve the efficiency of your house by taking out a loan that you don't need to be personally responsible for and will cost ridiculous amounts in compound interest.

Has the world gone mad?

 

[moggy1968]

yup!!!

 

[SRE]

DECCs Green Deal team are running a webchat tomorrow (Thursday at 12pm) - Green Deal Consultation webchat - Department of Energy and Climate Change

Ok - I watched this until it finished. Loads of unanswered questions, but the key bit I was interested in - pv & Fit was that they couldn't be combined. It's an either/or situation and if Green Deal is applicable for pv you can't have the Fit.

I'd like someone who's been watching to tell me I'm wrong - but that's my interpretation of it!

 

[Earthstore]

Help me on this one please, "if Green Deal is applicable"? What does that mean?
Can you opt into the green deal, or can you choose to stay out of it?
If you stay out of it, is the EPC rating going to still be C to be entitled fot FIT?
Hell this shambles just gets worse.

 

[SRE]

I've been putting off reading all 238 pages of the consultation and then the risk assessments etc but I think that's going to be tomorrow's job so I can really get a handle on this.

This is the bit I'm referring to :

Nicola:
Hello to people who asked about the links between Green Deal, RHI and FITS. This is not simple and is something we are discussions with the heating and Migrogen industries on. Essentially, certain renewable heating technologies and some microgeneration meaures (include PV) are eligible for the GD. This means that a customer could choose either scheme, but in practice we might see more microgen measures being installed with GD finance over time as costs come down. We're very keen to ensure that properties benefitting from micorogen and renewable heat technologies also have the the fabric of the building addressed, so they are less leaky!

So when the price for pv drops so far that the subsidy isn't needed anymore Green Deal might be one option for householders (although the interest rate would put me off) but until that point my reading of it is that you either have Fit or Green Deal but you can't have both.

 

[zeljuga]

Perpetum mobile story: Du not use any energy in home ! and then you can claim for all that you already use.
Not imprest with GD proposal.

 

[TedM]

I haven't seen the webchat yet, but will try to get through it tonight.

You've always got to bear in mind the Green Deal 'Golden Rule' - that no energy efficiency measure (or maybe pv) can be funded by it unless the money it saves from your energy bill can meet the cost of the finance repayments. So whether GD can be used to pay the capital cost of a pv installation can depend on exactly how the benefit side is allowed to work; i.e. if only the actual cost of electricity saved is used or if the income from FiTs generation and export is added to this figure. If it is only the offset then no pv system is ever likely to meet the rule.

 

[SRE]

I was hoping that the fit and export would be included but it appears not to be. So no pv for Green Deal in the short term.

 

[TedM]

Just been through the DECC webchat and have to say that most useful questions were simply ignored. There was no real clarity on the GD/FiTs/RHI question.

Here's another analysis that blows holes in GD - Carbon Commentary · The Green Deal: failure is almost guaranteed

 

[The Solar King]

Get Real

The Green Deal = The Mean Deal

This is a highly regressive policy which will adversely affect the less well off. It will promote fuel poverty. Bill payers pay for this.
This is something to keep the swivel eyed Tory back benchers happy. If they weren't MPs they would be sectioned under the Mental Health Act for our protection let alone their own. Unfortunately Government cuts mean there are no longer institutions where we can lock this lot away and forget about them.

 

[SRE]

Apparently the British Gas pilot of Green Deal has shown less than 5% take up - certainly looks like it's going to be another white elephant.

Department of Energy and Climate Change Blog» Blog Archive » The Golden Rule the comments are interesting ....

 

[telectrix]

the whole issue of climate change is ONE BIG CON. remember last winter, several degrees below freezing for weeks on end. this year it's much warmer. can anyone with a brain say that this is caused by man's emission of CO2 and the like in only 1 year? ...nope, it's all due to the Sun (not the daily comic, that big yellow thing in the sky). it's like king canut trying to stop the tide coming in. man can't change nature, but some will make oodles of cash for themselves trying to persuade us otherwise. rant of the day over.

 

[SolarCity]

remember last winter, several degrees below freezing for weeks on end. this year it's much warmer.

Er... so what's your point?

can anyone with a brain say that this is caused by man's emission of CO2 and the like in only 1 year? ...nope, it's all due to the Sun

No, and no one else is saying that either.

No offence, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Global warming IS happening - if this is due to natural cycles or not is the only thing that is debatable.

My opinion is that we should act as if we are causing the warming and do everything we can to correct it.

 

[sambotc]

What caused global cooling then (ice age) ? I'm pretty sure we weren't burning fossil fuels back then? Global warming may well exist, but i've yet to see proof that it is not part of a natural cycle and definitely through our addiction to oil. I do agree with you though that we should do what we can to prevent rather than sit back an assume all is OK, but why does so much money have to be made from it by already wealthy businessman (big 6, major oil companies all have vested interests in green energy now)

I'm pretty sure the timing has more to do with depleting oil supplies, and the strange anomalies in recent weather conditions as a push in the right direction, than carbon emissions or melting ice caps.

Maybe i'm naive, or maybe i've been fed some much bull over the years by media and government, that everything I hear brings suspicion to the table with it.

 

[solarsavings]

Perhaps those with the most to lose see the evidence clearly enough while those like lord lawson who cant see beyond his next lardy and port.
This sites worth a trawl through Climate Change and Global Warming Introduction

 

[SRE]

Whether you agree with climate change or not ( Kyoto agreements were in force by 1997 and had been worked on for 5 years before then so climate change has been uncovered in the last year ;-) ) security of supply - of water and energy, is what is going to drive politics for the forseeable future.

You only need to look at what Iran are threatening at the minute to see how important it is for us to preserve what we have and adopt as much self generation as possible. I can't for the life of me see how the green Deal is going to tackle it though.

 

[CES Heating]

Its simple... its not. The Green deal is a con, the only deal will be the for the finance providers and the national installing companies (who will actually be providing finance themselves too). These days, anything lablelled "green" should be looked into very carefully as most schemes are nothing but vehicles for milking the public dry.
You will be better off installing insulation and energy efficient measures yourself (or by using a properly qualified contractor within their specific field e.g. Gas, Solar etc). Money men / Government ruin everything once they get involved.

 

[moggy1968]

I don't see PV as anything to do with climate change because the arguments are too muddled and contradictory.
I do see solar and other renewables as being about saving resources.
It is totally clear that we cannot go on using our natural resources as we are and have, we have to find alternative ways of generating energy to preserve those resources for as long as we can.

 

[Eco Deal]

heres a green deal question

we will have installers
we will have providers

we a company be able to provide and install under the same roof????

like an umberella company

 

[moggy1968]

I think it is a scheme for bigger companies who can supply the complete package. A bit like MCS was really designed to exclude small or one man companies

 

[Eco Deal]

I dont see why only large companies can do full lot ?

you should be ablr to gain accreditations for both provider and installer

but the only problem is where do you go to get finance for your customer I heard it will be the likes of large retail companys or banks but not sure if I am correct !

 

[Somecamel]

I'm a small company- Was only 'me' back in October 2010 but now have two guys working with me.

I don't particularly trust the green deal but that's more than likely down to me not completely understanding it and perhaps the chance that the government with renege on this 'deal' as well.

However, I have built a 'Green' Company and I can't let it all fall apart just because Solar PV isn't as lucrative as it once was.

As soon as they announced the cuts I was onto the Green Deal case.

I have in motion a re-branding that is ready to go live on my say so.

We need to get off this PV cloud a bit. There are other technologies out there where you can still make money and run a viable business.

I do feel sorry for the 'proper' electricians of whom I sub out to two guys as they will miss the money as well.

Time to get on with it- Are you going to take the risk?

 

[moggy1968]

The problem is, if you take the risk, can you now, in the light of recent events, trust the Government not to give it to you in the unmentionables once again.
I would look at it but am reluctant to pour time an money into something else the Government is running.
I was lucky that thanks to the November rush I was able to make up the money I had put in. wether it was an economic use of my time though I wouldn't like to contemplate.
I also passionately believe in renewables but once bitten is definately the case for me. I also don't beleiev the Green deal is the way forward. I don't really see it working in any kind of large way.

 

[Somecamel]

The sad fact is I can't trust them but at the moment all I have done for the past 5 years is sell renewable energy systems/products.

I'm always on the hunt for better things but I truly believe that this industry does have a future.

I'm trying to work out where you guys fit in at the moment, hence I feel your pain.

If you have/had a main electrical business that was doing well you can always fall back on that but I suspect some people on here weren't doing well with the recession and Solar was a bit of a silver lining.

 

[moggy1968]

yep, the electrical business was a struggle, thats why I went into solar. I do have other things to fall back on. we have an ebay store (Captain Moggy's Surplus) and the profits from the rush will go into stock for that and we are going to look at importing our own stuff. Also I have other quals I can get work doing. I also have a good relationship with a firm that might have some social housing contracts so the futures looking ok for us.

There's always the Utility Warehouse!!!

 

[Somecamel]

yep, the electrical business was a struggle, thats why I went into solar. I do have other things to fall back on. we have an ebay store (Captain Moggy's Surplus) and the profits from the rush will go into stock for that and we are going to look at importing our own stuff. Also I have other quals I can get work doing. I also have a good relationship with a firm that might have some social housing contracts so the futures looking ok for us.

There's always the Utility Warehouse!!!

I have to admit I did pay my £100 signing up fee 'reduced' from £200 as a special offer

That was the end of that

 

[SRE]

Tesco, M&S, B&Q are all being lined up for Green Deal, they will provide a one stop shop for everything and get the likes of Enact to deliver. Great for Mark Group and other similar sized businesses but no good for micro businesses - ie the majority of the solar businesses.

I may eat my words later this year but I can't see us doing anything with Green Deal at all. I've worked in the energy efficiency/renewables industry for over 20 years now and until 3 years ago I ran multi-million pound energy efficiency schemes. IMHO Green Deal ain't going to work. If you didn't install when it was free you aren't going to install when you have to have a charge added to the fuel bills attached to your house, particularly when there's no guarantee that the savings will pay the loan repayments.

Of course they may listen to the consultation and completely change the concept :rofl: