The photovoltaic effect

[valet]

Question ….sorry could not able to find thread on this one.

If my system is left off AC and DC is turned off what’s happen to all that electricity generated from the panels?
Panels must be still producing something even they not connected to the inverter.
Reaction inside the panels photons of light exciting electrons into a higher state of energy, allowing them to act as charge carriers for an electric current. Resulting in the buildup of voltage between two electrodes.
This current/buildup must me going some ware or reaction just stays inside the cell?

 

[moggy1968]

As there is no flow of current there is no power as such. Power is voltage x current, voltage on it's own aint nothin!

 

[Gavin A]

where does the power in the battery go?

 

[Gavin A]

basically if there's no circuit, there's nowhere for the power to flow to, so it just remains as potential.

 

[valet]

Thanks for that.
So if solar panels under sun not connected to anything they not going to be damaged or defected in anyway? Just browsed internet and some people cover them from the sum if they not connected/ not in use……..must be mistake then?

 

[moggy1968]

I think thats probably just for mechanical protection against dust, bird poo etc

 

[infinity]

if you have batteries in a torch switched off do you take them out whenever not in use?

 

[Gavin A]

Thanks for that.
So if solar panels under sun not connected to anything they not going to be damaged or defected in anyway? Just browsed internet and some people cover them from the sum if they not connected/ not in use……..must be mistake then?

that could be for battery systems without a proper charge controller, or solar water heating, but for grid connect solar PV it's a complete misunderstanding of how they work.

I have seen people argue that you should cover the panels when installing them, but suspect that this advice is based on the very old style panels that used to come with no wires attached, where you actually had to wire them up yourself in the box on the back, so there was far more chance of someone shorting the +- circuits together by mistake. All modern panels come fully fitted with wires and IP66/67 connectors, meaning you'd have to try really hard to short circuit them - eg by sticking a screwdriver into each socket, so covering the panels is both entirely unnecessary and hugely impractical.

 

[valet]

Thanks Gavin for clarification grate stuff. I left mine off as awaiting for inspection. Talking about connectors is a nightmare as electrician replaced original MC3 with MC4. Now warranty under question. :-(

 

[moggy1968]

I can't see any justifiable reason why swapping the connectors should invalidate the warranty, other than manufacturers trying to get out of their obligations.
For future reference though I believe Sibberts now do MC3/4 converters

 

[Gavin A]

Thanks Gavin for clarification grate stuff. I left mine off as awaiting for inspection. Talking about connectors is a nightmare as electrician replaced original MC3 with MC4. Now warranty under question. :-(

shouldn't have any impact at all on the warranty - well only if it's the connector that was faulty or something.

 

[valet]

I send this question to Sanyo regarding replacement of MC3 with MC4 and that’s what they send me:

“It is *NOT* allowed under our guarantee conditions to *cut* the wires, for instance to put other plugs. The reason is the possible lack of perfect isolation in the module. I repeat, cutting the cables voids the guarantee.

It is OK to use adaptors if you prefer to use other kinds of plugs towards the inverter. Usually the side to the modules will have MC3 plugs and the side of the inverter Sunclix (if SMA) or other such as MC4, depending on inverter type.

I know that a good engineer/installer can exchange a plug and do it correctly, with no isolation loss, but our QA is very sensitive, and because we sell millions of panels, we need a general rule”.
This email came from Manager Business Development (Photovoltaics)

What do you think on this? What should I tell my installer? Just don’t want have panels without warranty, we not talking about one year is a 25 year warranty

 

[Gavin A]

chances of failure are something like 1 in a million on Sanyo, and I'd think they'd struggle to justify this position legally anyway.

also, it's only the performance guarantee that's 25 years, build is 10 years FYI.

First I've heard of this, think I'll take it up with them myself as this is ridiculous (not that we often swap them, but occasionally we have done for the ends of the string if we've run out of MC3 connectors etc).

 

[valet]

Thank you Gavin,

I do know about Sanyo build warranty now 10 years used to be 5 years.

Would you be happy if you was a customer to find out your item do not have warranty? Because installer apparently came with a wrong connectors and tools.
I think installer should have done more research on warranty and installation requirements. I do believe some manufactures allow for connectors replacement but majority NOT.

It is a pleasure to talk to professional especially Sanyo Premium Installer. Hope you get some justification on that from Sanyo


Respect

 

[Gavin A]

there's nothing in the Sanyo / Panasonic warranty documents about it.

Closest thing would be the terms referring to alterations to the module, and following the installation instructions.

There's nothing in the Panasonic installation instructions about it, and IMO this isn't altering the module, it's altering a connection to a cable that is connected to the module.

It's a stupid position anyway, as the installer has to make up the connector on the end of the cable from the isolator that the panels are then connected to, so what on earth is the difference.

Defo going to email panasonic about this and get them to sort their act out.

So, to answer your question, I think you should be directing your ire at Sanyo / Panasonic as the installer hasn't broken any installation guidelines, and their position is unreasonable.

eta - erm, my links don't appear to be working.

 

[valet]

The only think I have found in Panasonic /Sanyo Guarantee docs:

Section 3 Exceptions and Limitations
A: The limited guarantees (see Section 1) shall not be granted in the following cases:


c) A Module has been damaged by way of abuse or any alterations and/or actions and repairs which were not performed by SANYO.

 

[moggy1968]

Thank you Gavin,

I do know about Sanyo build warranty now 10 years used to be 5 years.

Would you be happy if you was a customer to find out your item do not have warranty? Because installer apparently came with a wrong connectors and tools.
I think installer should have done more research on warranty and installation requirements. I do believe some manufactures allow for connectors replacement but majority NOT.

It is a pleasure to talk to professional especially Sanyo Premium Installer. Hope you get some justification on that from Sanyo


Respect

in defence of your installer, my MC4 crimping tool was over £300. 'm not going to buy a different crimping tool for every type of connector on the market, and I'm not going to carry spares of every connector either.

I think Sanyo are on thin ice on this one frankly.

 

[wstevew]

Page 4 of the Suntech installation guide says:-

Removal of the connectors will void the warranty.

 

[SibertSolar]

Always a contentious point as different manufacturers seem to have different statements. If anyone does need any assistance with MC3/MC4 adaptors then, as has been mentioned already (thanks), we have stocks at the moment.

 

[valet]

Thanks guys for all your input very helpful!!! :17:

That what I received today from eu.panasonic.com

"Dear Sir,
Thank you for your email.
Unfortunately, any modification of our modules will make you lose the guarantee.
Please ask your installation company to keep the modules in the initial state.

Best regards."

Disappointed with Sanyo/Panasonic!!!
:banghead::banghead:

It is scary how many people lost their warranty, just like that?!!!!

Gavin did you manage to talk/email with Panasonic?

 

[moggy1968]

err, about half my customers have lost theirs on that basis, oops! will have to use converters from now on. If it came to the crunch I still reckon they would struggle with this though

 

[SolarCity]

As Gavin says, the chance of a panel failing are about as close to zero as is imaginable. The chances of the panel failing which happened to have the ends changed would be even less likely.

And, of course, even if the panel did fail, you could always change the end for an MC3 afterwards.

You would hope that Panasonic would use common sense if this kind of scenario arose.

 

[valet]

Thank you SolarCity for your input always appreciated. That’s what Panasonic sent me to reply on swapping back to MC3.


“If I were you (not the manufacturer), as the initial mistake comes from the installation company because they are “professionals” and they didn’t clearly respect our guarantee conditions, I would first at all ask the installer to replace simply the modules.
The replacement back to MC3 connectors will always be “visible” for us. As you wrote, at least, the cables will be shorter and therefore, I cannot promise the customer service will see or not this. It’s a bet !”

 

[SolarCity]

Thank you SolarCity for your input always appreciated. That’s what Panasonic sent me to reply on swapping back to MC3.


“If I were you (not the manufacturer), as the initial mistake comes from the installation company because they are “professionals” and they didn’t clearly respect our guarantee conditions, I would first at all ask the installer to replace simply the modules.
The replacement back to MC3 connectors will always be “visible” for us. As you wrote, at least, the cables will be shorter and therefore, I cannot promise the customer service will see or not this. It’s a bet !”

What an absolutely pathetic stance to take. I would ask them to explain exactly why replacing an MC3 connector should invalidate the warranty - it cannot possibly affect the panel in any way at all.

 

[MorganPVI]

What would happen if you took any electrical item back to the shop after you'd cut the 3 pin plug off and installed another? - they'd refuse the warranty as you've modified/damaged the item.

Sanyo and any other manufacturer are well within their rights to refuse a warranty on a damaged or modified panel. Any professional installer would not be cutting cables and fitting MC4s. (I know we've all done it) but you cannot blame Sanyo just because you do not have the correct tools for the job.

Perhaps this is an unpopular view, but it's needs to be said whatever effect it may or may not have on the panel.

 

[SolarCity]

Perhaps this is an unpopular view, but it's needs to be said whatever effect it may or may not have on the panel.

Even if it has zero effect on the panel? Panasonic/Sanyo are going to find it tougher and tougher to compete with the reduction in FITs - it'll be stupid decisions like this which would make me turn their back on them completely.

I would honour our warranty on an install unless the customer had done something stupid which directly affected the system.

 

[MorganPVI]

I would honour our warranty on an install unless the customer had done something stupid which directly affected the system.

Yes, I agree, we probably would too, but your not ruled by accountants who see over a million units shipped and the liabitlies and risk associated with warranty claims. Imagine what it would do to your share price if your warranty covered installers butching your lovely product.

 

[moggy1968]

I don't know why 'any reputable installer' wouldn't change connections, it's quite within the scope of any competent electrician and if the changing of the plugs has had no impact on the reason for the warranty claim I see no justification for it being held up by the manufacturers as a reason to weasel out of their obligations. And if it was some domestic appliance I had changed the plug on I wouldn't expect that to affect a warranty either, unless it was a material fact, like the wrong fuse size had been installed.

This really smacks of manufacturers trying to get out of their warranties. 'I know, lets all use different connectors so then when installers are forced to change them and invalidate the warranty'

the failure rate of panels is so low as to be negligable to these companies, even for the bean counters

 

[SolarCity]

Imagine what it would do to your share price if your warranty covered installers butching your lovely product.

I would be fully in agreement with you if I thought that replacing an MC3 connector for an MC4 connector was butchering a product.

It is like a car manufacturer voiding a warranty because someone hung an air freshner from the rear view mirror.

 

[moggy1968]

or changed the tyres!!

 

[Gavin A]

Yes, I agree, we probably would too, but your not ruled by accountants who see over a million units shipped and the liabitlies and risk associated with warranty claims. Imagine what it would do to your share price if your warranty covered installers butching your lovely product.

should your TV warranty be voided because a qualified electrician replaced the plug?

 

[Gavin A]

Any professional installer would not be cutting cables and fitting MC4s

can you explain why not?

we are after all responsible for wiring up the other connector on the cable from the isolator that it's connecting to. What's so special about Sanyo's cables that we're not judged competent to touch them, but are competent to wire up every other aspect of the installation?

IMO this is a completely unacceptable position from Panasonic, and I've just emailed them to let them ask them to revise their position on this.

I'd have to wonder if they'd really have preferred us simply not to install their systems last November after we ran out of MC3 connectors, and couldn't get any more from anywhere, while having 3 pallets of Sanyo panel in our warehouse with customers begging for them to be installed before the deadline? Would Sanyo have refunded the £50k we'd paid up front for these panels, and compensated us for the lost revenue caused by supply chain issues from their component suppliers? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[valet]

Hi Gavin
I think your mail box are over the limit.

Any new on Pansonic / Sanyo warranty?

They send me a new reply

 

[valet]

Any news on Sanyo warranty if MC3 connectors had been replaced with MC4?

 

[valet]

:cool3:

 

[xiaoneitie]

basically if there's no circuit, there's nowhere for the power to flow to, so it just remains as potential.

 

[levi]

was looking in to doing the pv instalers course. in your experience dose it pay to do an mcs quall i would probably only be doing the odd pv job.

 

[Earthstore]

No.
Really not a good idea, try and think of another...

 

[solarsparkie]

a panel in sunlight but not connected behaves much like a charged capacitor ( there is no current just potential ) which will be limited