The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!⚡

[Scolmore]

The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!
When wiring socket outlets do you:
1. Use ring final circuits
2. Use radial circuits

 

[pc1966]

I suspect though that houses built or rewired now will have an acceptable of sockets so the temptation to DIY-add more is less than a house wired in the 70s when two double sockets was all a living room would see, and bedrooms might only be one outlet!

It is not something I really follow much, but I'm also pretty sure the Scottish building regulations has something about the provision of an adequate number of sockets in safe locations to try and avoid the risk of multiple extension leads and DIY modifications to compensate for it.

Do the building regulations in England & Wales, or in Northern Ireland, provide this sort of guidance?

 

[nicebutdim]

I suspect though that houses built or rewired now will have an acceptable of sockets so the temptation to DIY-add more is less than a house wired in the 70s when two double sockets was all a living room would see, and bedrooms might only be one outlet!

It is not something I really follow much, but I'm also pretty sure the Scottish building regulations has something about the provision of an adequate number of sockets in safe locations to try and avoid the risk of multiple extension leads and DIY modifications to compensate for it.

Do the building regulations in England & Wales, or in Northern Ireland, provide this sort of guidance?

I'm not sure what regulations are in place in NI, but this house was constructed only a few years ago and an adequate number of sockets were provided in each room as standard - less straightforward was guessing where those sockets should be placed in each room

What wont change is power being taken, after the fact, to sheds or elsewhere outdoors. Also changes to interior furnishings and decor will continue to see accessories relocated to more suitable positions or additions made for similar reasons. I'd be happy if this house didn't change for the rest of my days, but the other half wont be quite so easily pleased.

 

[radiohead]

That ties in with the point I was making on the previous page.

20 years from now, radial circuits being installed today will also be altered and spurred from. While this may not introduce the same potential for overloading of cables as it does with rings, it will still cause headaches with testing to with multiple end points.

As I understand things; radials are easy to test when they are linear in form - just as rings are when unadulterated - once those basic forms are deviated from, matters become less straightforward. No matter what regulations are in place, DIY will never stop and professionals wont always follow best practices.

IMO a radial circuit with branches is not so much a cause for concern as a broken RFC, or even a cause for concern at all.... as long as the OCPD is of the correct rating for the circuit conductors. Neither can I see testing being much of a headache, an R1+R2 test at each point will verify the farthest point of the circuit, and the highest reading is recorded, same with Zs. I really cant see why that is complicated. Of course ideally you would want a conventional radial but there are no regulations against unconventional.

 

[telectrix]

I'd be happy if this house didn't change for the rest of my days, but the other half wont be quite so easily pleased.

er' indoors only happy when can plug hair dryer in when in bath. that's so tempting...

 

[LastManOnline]

Who is "we"?

The point I was making was in response to your comment about not finding branches off radial circuits, which result in a testing nightmare.

I get that the safety issue is removed with spurs from radials, but as general socket circuits on these islands have traditionally be run as RFCs, I think it's reasonable to make the point that an increase in the use of radial circuits could see as many messy circuits as additions/repairs are effected with the passing of time.

We referred to ROI. Yes, the situation you describe may well arise but in the UK only.
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IMO a radial circuit with branches is not so much a cause for concern as a broken RFC, or even a cause for concern at all.... as long as the OCPD is of the correct rating for the circuit conductors. Neither can I see testing being much of a headache, an R1+R2 test at each point will verify the farthest point of the circuit, and the highest reading is recorded, same with Zs. I really cant see why that is complicated. Of course ideally you would want a conventional radial but there are no regulations against unconventional.

That's a correct assessment. A linear radial is always easier to test than a ring. A linear radial is always easier to faultfind than a ring.
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I'm not sure what regulations are in place in NI, but this house was constructed only a few years ago and an adequate number of sockets were provided in each room as standard - less straightforward was guessing where those sockets should be placed in each room

What wont change is power being taken, after the fact, to sheds or elsewhere outdoors. Also changes to interior furnishings and decor will continue to see accessories relocated to more suitable positions or additions made for similar reasons. I'd be happy if this house didn't change for the rest of my days, but the other half wont be quite so easily pleased.

Regis in NI are in principle same as UK. There work practices, may vary somewhat. There will always be regional variations.

 

[pc1966]

A linear radial is always easier to test than a ring. A linear radial is always easier to faultfind than a ring.

Eh, how come?
If you temporarily disconnect one end of the ring, it is now a linear radial!
[automerge]1598770949[/automerge]
Or is it down to the radials being many and smaller?
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Do the regulations in ROI (either wiring regs or building regs) have requirements on adequate provision of sockets per room, hallway, etc?

 

[LastManOnline]

That ties in with the point I was making on the previous page.

20 years from now, radial circuits being installed today will also be altered and spurred from. While this may not introduce the same potential for overloading of cables as it does with rings, it will still cause headaches with testing to with multiple end points.

As I understand things; radials are easy to test when they are linear in form - just as rings are when unadulterated - once those basic forms are deviated from, matters become less straightforward. No matter what regulations are in place, DIY will never stop and professionals wont always follow best practices.

"20 years from now... radial circuits altered and spurred from". That is highly unlikely. The spurs and alterations you refer to are unique to the UK. Radials are overwhelmingly linear here and on the continent.
You are correct about the testing
[automerge]1598773957[/automerge]

Eh, how come?
If you temporarily disconnect one end of the ring, it is now a linear radial!
[automerge]1598770949[/automerge]
Or is it down to the radials being many and smaller?
[automerge]1598771034[/automerge]
Do the regulations in ROI (either wiring regs or building regs) have requirements on adequate provision of sockets per room, hallway, etc

PC. Can I first say that I think it unfortunate the title of this thread appears designed to provoke. The topic is an excellent one but I feel its become a little emotive and that's affecting some comments. I have made my own feelings clear about the ring on previous posts. Am not a fan but each to his own and all that.
Now as you correctly say, temp disconnect one end of your ring and you are back to your radial. End of. In fact the ring and the radial are first cousins, some might say brothers.
Put another way, a ring is simply 2 radials joined together at either end.
Point 1) Verification tests on radials simpler than rings.
Point 2) Faultfinding easier. You may say marginal. OK. But on a Friday afternoon I really appreciate the fact I don't have to take off the DB cover to disconnect both legs of the ring before I start to isolate which part of the socket circuit is down to earth (for example).
Vortigern likes the math. I like to get in and get out.

Regarding your other questions we are very close to the UK in most aspects. In fact when you bring out a newset of regs much of it will be "copied and pasted" over here.

Regarding radial circuits there will be a maximum of 2 bedrooms per 20 amp circuit with a max of 10 socket points. In practice there will usually be 3 double sockets per bedroom. A hallway is not regarded as a room. There must be a minimum of 2 radials in the kitchen with a min of of 10 sockets recommended.Any appliance above 2.2 kW must have its own circuit. I incorrectly stated 1500 Watts on a previous post.

Regarding ring circuits. Unlimited sockets over a 100 Mt square floor space. Unfused spurs not permitted. Use in kitchen not permitted.

 

[pc1966]

Regarding your other questions we are very close to the UK in most aspects. In fact when you bring out a newset of regs much of it will be "copied and pasted" over here.

Do you know if the UK IET takes back much from the ROI's equivalent body?

There are a couple of things mentioned on these forums from ROI that we should be looking to include here (e.g. local earth rods on TN-C-S, spur limits on rings, etc).

Regarding radial circuits there will be a maximum of 2 bedrooms per 20 amp circuit with a max of 10 socket points. In practice there will usually be 3 double sockets per bedroom. A hallway is not regarded as a room. There must be a minimum of 2 radials in the kitchen

I think the Scottish building regs require a socket in hallways so folk vacuum cleaning,
etc, are not tempted to run extension leads under doorways, etc.

Regarding ring circuits. Unlimited sockets over a 100 Mt square floor space. Unfused spurs not permitted. Use in kitchen not permitted.

Odd about the kitchen limit, but definitely in favour of less or ideally no spurs.

In fact if I were supreme leader/dictator I would say only 2 wires per socket or similar terminal. End of. So rings are only rings, and radials are always linear.

But then I work up to the current sh1tshow running the place...

 

[LastManOnline]

Do you know if the UK IET takes back much from the ROI's equivalent body?

There are a couple of things mentioned on these forums from ROI that we should be looking to include here (e.g. local earth rods on TN-C-S, spur limits on rings, etc).

I think the Scottish building regs require a socket in hallways so folk vacuum cleaning,
etc, are not tempted to run extension leads under doorways, etc.


Odd about the kitchen limit, but definitely in favour of less or ideally no spurs.

In fact if I were supreme leader/dictator I would say only 2 wires per socket or similar terminal. End of. So rings are only rings, and radials are always linear.

But then I work up to the current sh1tshow running the place...

I do know that the relationship between both bodies is very constructive. Always has been. My own inspector has commented on his interactions with his opposite number in the UK. Traditionally the ROI will always look at the direction the UK is going in. After all its a standard bearer in many areas. Naturally work practices in the continent are factored in as well. We have ended up here with a kind of hybrid. As with any system. Its a work in progress. As, you know I am very critical of our approach here with the TNC-S supply system.

 

[pc1966]

I know from my own limited experience with dealing with standards bodies / regulators (not electrical power area) is they are glacially slow in doing things.

Sometimes that is good as it provides time for adequate discussions and full evidence to come out, but sometimes bad as simple updates/corrections can take years to be done, if at all.

 

[static zap]

Have witnessed this commercially while in a work place.
Too tight for a re-wire ,multiple rings on 3 phase.
All overloaded, poorly configured for balance across phases.

Also it might stop the overloading of circuits especially high loads on the same ring,just because it’s a ring.

Resulting in the cooking up / burning out of one of cutout phases.

 

[nicebutdim]

"20 years from now... radial circuits altered and spurred from". That is highly unlikely. The spurs and alterations you refer to are unique to the UK. Radials are overwhelmingly linear here and on the continent.
You are correct about the testing

Maybe, maybe not.

The point I was making is that most issues that people have with RFCs seem to be due to alterations and modification. The people who installed rings 30 years ago were unlikely to have done so in the hope that others might later deviate from their simple installation.

Left alone or extended properly, I don't see many complaints about either form of circuit. Once a ring is no longer a ring or a radial gains multiple end points, their simplicity is lost.

Imagine, if you will, a newly installed radial serving two bedrooms. Someone decides to fit built in wardrobes that cover two sockets - those sockets might be brought forwarfd into the wardrobe or they might become hidden. Now we have one available double socket and want a couple more, so the cheapest and easiest route is to spur from the remaining socket - not ideal, but it's a common practice. Some years later the same happens in the second bedroom served by that radial and fault finding becomes less straghtforward than envisaged when you installed that circuit. Any subsequent problems are not of your making, but that doesn't help the guy struggling to understand the layout of this modified circuit.

In short; the point I'm trying to make is that, with the best will in the world, neither RFC nor radial can be guaranteed to remain as straightforward as their designer intended and fault finding on either type of circuit should be a fairly simple exercise if best practices are adhered to. In reality, best practices are often ----ed out the window.

 

[LastManOnline]

Do you know if the UK IET takes back much from the ROI's equivalent body?

There are a couple of things mentioned on these forums from ROI that we should be looking to include here (e.g. local earth rods on TN-C-S, spur limits on rings, etc).

I think the Scottish building regs require a socket in hallways so folk vacuum cleaning,
etc, are not tempted to run extension leads under doorways, etc.


Odd about the kitchen limit, but definitely in favour of less or ideally no spurs.

In fact if I were supreme leader/dictator I would say only 2 wires per socket or similar terminal. End of. So rings are only rings, and radials are always linear.

But then I work up to the current sh1tshow running the place...

You are right. It is a little odd about the kitchen prohibition. As I have mentioned previously there is no overt policy over here about not using rings. I have never heard from an inspector or a Q. C. instructor (we are required to attend these refresher /upgrade courses every few, years) anything negative. I just think (for reasons already stated) that in practice the radial has gained "most favoured status" and the ring (by default) is been ushered gently towards the exit.

 

[nicebutdim]

...There must be a minimum of 2 radials in the kitchen with a min of of 10 sockets recommended.Any appliance above 2.2 kW must have its own circuit. I incorrectly stated 1500 Watts on a previous post.

Regarding ring circuits. Unlimited sockets over a 100 Mt square floor space. Unfused spurs not permitted. Use in kitchen not permitted.

What is the reasoning behind RFCs not being permitted in kitchens?

Edit: you addresssed this above while I was typing.

 

[LastManOnline]

Maybe, maybe not.

The point I was making is that most issues that people have with RFCs seem to be due to alterations and modification. The people who installed rings 30 years ago were unlikely to have done so in the hope that others might later deviate from their simple installation.

Left alone or extended properly, I don't see many complaints about either form of circuit. Once a ring is no longer a ring or a radial gains multiple end points, their simplicity is lost.

Imagine, if you will, a newly installed radial serving two bedrooms. Someone decides to fit built in wardrobes that cover two sockets - those sockets might be brought forwarfd into the wardrobe or they might become hidden. Now we have one available double socket and want a couple more, so the cheapest and easiest route is to spur from the remaining socket - not ideal, but it's a common practice. Some years later the same happens in the second bedroom served by that radial and fault finding becomes less straghtforward than envisaged when you installed that circuit. Any subsequent problems are not of your making, but that doesn't help the guy struggling to understand the layout of this modified circuit.

In short; the point I'm trying to make is that, with the best will in the world, neither RFC nor radial can be guaranteed to remain as straightforward as their designer intended and fault finding on either type of circuit should be a fairly simple exercise if best practices are adhered to. In reality, best practices are often ----ed out the window.

Obviously

What is the reasoning behind RFCs not being permitted in kitchens?

That is a question I cannot answer. But I suspect they they prefer the idea of heavier loads been spread over individual radial circuits