Thermodynamic Test results - Not good

[Gavin A]

If solar thermodynamic is such a great product why are the manufacturers not getting proper testing done ?

because standard test facilities for ashp were inadequate for testing the panels as they don't include solar gain, or wind. I understand Narec now have a couple under test.

Why did the manufacturers of thermodynamic panels originally need to con the MCS into getting approval ?

MCS doesn't have a category into which they fit, is this the fault of the manufacturers or MCS for ignoring a product that was on the market before MCS existed?

Why are thermodynamic modules still not MCS approved ?

Because it's taken this long just to get a test procedure agreed, as originally MCS wanted to test them using standard ASHP tests which would entirely ignore the main benefits of the panels - ie no solar gain, no wind in the test procedures. (as I understand it).

Why are customers of this product complaining about the running cost on various forums ?

miss selling / bad installs probably, though it's also possible that some models might be implemented badly.

As I say, I view them as being best when matched with solar PV, where the majority of the electricity used could be from the solar if controlled in the right way.

I'll see how they work in practice soon enough though.

 

[MCS Renewables]

So just to be clear you are saying :

That this unproven and untested, non MCS approved product, which is manufactured by two companies based in Spain and Portugal and not made for the UK market , which costs £6k plus to install and qualifies for no RHI or RHPP payments and costs at least £10 a week to run and in your opinion needs pairing with a PV system

is a better system than ...

A Solar thermal system that costs £6K or less to install, very very little to run, and qualifies for around £4k in RHI and RHPP payments over the seven years and is a proven technology that has been installed for twenty or more years in the UK.


Do you also believe that West Ham will win the premiership and that Santa exists ?

 

[wersolaruk]

6k plus, are u on drugs pal? stop twisting like a kid, mcs this mcs that. we install it for 3k all in. its clearly not the product its the people selling it, as for the performance of thermal its crap, and there are a a lot more complaints about thermal panels struggling to hit 18 degrees after september, one customer has reported with a thermal dynamics that performance dipped in early december buts still measured at 18 degrees on around the 10th of december which i think is great. had boiling hot water rest of the year.

 

[MCS Renewables]

3K !!!!!!!

You must be the cheapest people in the country , some of the companies near me are over 10K and still promising the RHI , the cheapest anywhere near us is £6995

 

[solarsavings]

Why are customers of this product complaining about the running cost on various forums ?

Do you have a link please.

 

[wersolaruk]

well they are ripping people off simple as, takes no more than a day to install, fgas engineer to regulate the panel side, and a standard plumber to pipe the cylinder up. radial circuit to feed the immersion probes and thats it, no mcs no bull crap that you have to do with pv. installer can still walk away with £1000 profit for a days work in and around a pv install is ok for us.

 

[Gavin A]

3K !!!!!!!

You must be the cheapest people in the country , some of the companies near me are over 10K and still promising the RHI , the cheapest anywhere near us is £6995

as I said, the problem is miss selling. Do you also think that solar PV is a bad technology because there are companies out there selling it for £14k and promising returns based on misleading data? or is that ok because MCS say it's ok?

£3k is about right for direct to the installer sales, obviously it will be more if the sales guy / company is wanting several grand off the sale.

 

[MCS Renewables]

a Do you also think that solar PV is a bad technology because there are companies out there selling it for £14k and promising returns based on misleading data? or is that ok because MCS say it's ok?

No but PV manufacturers have tested products that are approved, the same with solar thermal products and heat pumps, biomass boilers and wind turbines.
Independent testing has been undertaken on all of the above products and the results are clear and verifiable.

Solar thermodynamics is the only product I know that tried to con the MCS system by "painting stripes on a horse and calling it a zebra".
It is the only product that does not publish verifiable data and COP figures from testing.

 

[Gavin A]

So just to be clear you are saying :

That this unproven and untested, non MCS approved product, which is manufactured by two companies based in Spain and Portugal and not made for the UK market , which costs £6k plus to install and qualifies for no RHI or RHPP payments and costs at least £10 a week to run and in your opinion needs pairing with a PV system

where have you plucked that £10 a week figure from? Most houses could heat their water from straight immersions for less than that. Even if the average COP was as low as 2 that'd give costs of around £200 a year, but while the COP in winter may be that sort of level, there's no reason why it would be the rest of the year as long as it was timed to run mostly in daylight hours.

Without solar PV it'd not be worth retrofitting to houses on mains gas, but probably would for full electric houses.

With solar PV though most of the energy used would be from the solar generation, so the costs would be pretty minimal.

Ais a better system than ...

A Solar thermal system that costs £6K or less to install, very very little to run, and qualifies for around £4k in RHI and RHPP payments over the seven years and is a proven technology that has been installed for twenty or more years in the UK.

I see you missed the bit where I mentioned new builds and the fact they don't qualify for RHI anyway.

Factor the lack of RHI in, then consider that there is no need to supply a back up heat source, thereby reducing the size and cost of the boiler, and knocking a day or 2 of plumbing and the associated costs of pipes, valve etc from the overall costs of the work, and that around 40% of the hot water demand would need to be met from gas boiler on a standard solar water heating system...

In this situation I don't see that there's going to be much in it in running cost terms, and if there is solar PV to supply most of the power, then IMO the equation is likely to come out in favor of the thermodynamic option if it's controlled to ensure most of the use is when there's excess solar PV generation.

Basically these units are just heat pumps, and should be generally more efficient on average than most ashp due to the additional heat input of the solar gain, so arguments about its suitability for water heating should apply more to ASHP than they do to the thermodynamic systems due to the higher input temperatures when solar gain applies.

Do you also believe that West Ham will win the premiership and that Santa exists ?

No, but I do understand the physics behind heat pumps.

 

[Gavin A]

No but PV manufacturers have tested products that are approved, the same with solar thermal products and heat pumps, biomass boilers and wind turbines.
Independent testing has been undertaken on all of the above products and the results are clear and verifiable.

Solar thermodynamics is the only product I know that tried to con the MCS system by "painting stripes on a horse and calling it a zebra".
It is the only product that does not publish verifiable data and COP figures from testing.

it was also the only product that MCS / DECC hadn't seen fit to create a suitable category for when they were setting all these schemes up. That isn't down to there being anything inherently wrong with the technology, it's more that it's a relatively new technology that didn't have any UK trade body representation at the time this was all getting sorted out.

 

[wersolaruk]

well said gavin my thoughts exactly its a technology that stands completely on it own. in oil situations this can be a incredible investment , not so much on combi gas boiler install. I am going to pop one in my house to do my hot water requirements, just for the crack really see exactly how they do.

 

[solarsavings]

Do you have a link please.

MCS I think it important that you provide a link to those moaning about the running costs as google isn't being very helpful.

 

[MCS Renewables]

Check the Irish and ex pat Portugese Forums.

Loads and loads of issues, problems, lack of trust in product, lack of reliable data peoples electricity bills going up etc etc.
Too many to list .....

Flat plate solar collector v Thermodynamic solar collector - boards.ie

News: Thermodynamic solar/anytime panels - boards.ie

Beware of Thermodynamic Panels ? | Silver Spray

 

[solarsavings]

Mcs I've read all of the links you gave and couldn't find anyone who had had them installed complaining about the running cost. The link did show that people without any experience of the system are claiming they can't work.

 

[wersolaruk]

I am sorry MCS them links are rubbish, again its people throwing ideas from pillar to post. no one of them people have them actually installed and most of the comments they don't even give relevant answers to how the system actually works at all, just a educated answers based on false information. I can give you 5 numbers of customers who i have installed for and the feed back is brilliant, they all have solar pv installed. I think you need to stop trailing forums were most peoples heads are full of cartoons walt disney couldn't write and actually install one you maybe in for a shock.