This whole 17th Edition RCD thing.

JulianC · Dec 28, 2009

Righty, since deciding to retrain as a spark it's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork with jobs that need doing. The situation with one elderly relative is this:
At one end of her kitchen, there is a single pendant light operated by a single switch. Apparently the light stopped working a while back (new lamp didn't cure it

) and said relative claims to have received 'a tingle' from the switch (take this with a pinch of salt to be honest). This is of course a simple fault to diagnose and fix. However, the house is fed from a BS3036 fuseboard with not an RCD in site. Obviously being a real-world house, the wiring is not in earthed metallic conduit or more than 50mm in the wall. Everything I have learned to date shouts at the need for RCD protection but if the relative won't pay for a board upgrade and just wants her kitchen light fixed, what are my options (from a regs. compliance standpoint)?

As I see it I can:

1. Replace lighting circuit fuse with RCBO - not possible as they don't exist to replace rewireable fuses as far as I can tell
2. Install a stand alone RCCB between meter and board - provides the necessary RCD protection but still at a cost that will not be attractive and will be refused. Risk of nuisance tripping to consider too.
3. Just fix the damned light and stop worrying - state the requirement to upgrade to RCD protection on the Minor Works cert. as a recommendation
4. Refuse the work

- not an option

The sensible side of me says option 3 is OK as far as the legalities are concerned, as I will not be leaving the installation in a worse state of regs. compliance than prior to carrying out the work. However, by working on the lighting circuit I take on responsiblity for it's compliance with BS7671 do I not? Does 'reasonably practicable' come into this? After all, I can't force the customer into works they can't/won't have done.

I use the job above as an example but my question applies to any similar situation. Have looked around, including on these forums, and there seems to be no definitive answer.

Thank you.

johnnyb · Dec 28, 2009

Tell her that not paying is not an option either, these are the rules now, and thats it, make sure she realises the implications of YOU not doin it right, if she gets hurt is she going to bring you a package in prison every now and then, cause thats whats its about SAFETY FIRST.

JulianC · Dec 28, 2009

That's my question - is it that simple and clear cut? Are these the rules now? Is it definitive? I must fit an RCD regardless, even though it might only be a wire popped out at the back of the switch plate that's causing the problem? I'll admit, this is what I was taught, and what I hold to be correct, but after reading around, things do not seem to be that black and white. So if a customer (forget the fact it's a relative) just wants a simple fault fixing but won't pay for a board upgrade or what ever else is needed to bring the circuit up to 17th edition standards, you'll refuse the work?

Mr Brady · Dec 28, 2009

B.S. 7671 is as the "B.S." part suggests a British Standard it is not the "law" you do not have any judicial powers of enforcement, you can neither coerce nor insist a customer adheres to it, it is their property, (their responsibility to maintain that property), their money.

what you can do is advise them of any danger they may be in, that you as a trained professional electrician have discovered and assessed during your visit, in so doing you should include your findings and advice in your invoice and/or certification, which of course protects you if an incident involving that property later occurs.

So... item 3 on your list has it covered, your responsibility involves not leaving it in a worse state and advising of any dangers discovered. If you feel that the existing situation is life threatening, and the customer is not prepared to accept advice or pay for necessary safety work then you should do no more than give advice.

This is of course just my opinion, others may choose to differ.

electromotive · Dec 28, 2009

Tell her to ram it! you are the qualified electrician if she cannot except your profesional advice tell her to find some dodgy back street out fit.
tell here its not her that will be struck off as a electrician.

lister · Dec 28, 2009

just fix the light fault, this is maintenance and doesnt require you to rcd anything ,at the time of the original installation it was installed correctly, its only if you add to a circuit you have to get involved in todays current regs. check bonding is in place,( bonding is a must and not optional ) recommend a new fuse box if you like.

Guest123 · Dec 28, 2009

electromotive said:
Tell her to ram it!

A bit strong seeing as she is an elderly relative!!!!

JulianC · Dec 28, 2009

Lenny said:
A bit strong seeing as she is an elderly relative!!!!

He must have known I was talking about the mother-in-law!

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think Lister and Mr. Brady have provided some clarification/reassurance.

electromotive · Dec 28, 2009

oops sorry missed that!

Guest123 · Dec 28, 2009

Also, you are fine to go ahead and change the light fitting as 1. It is not notifiable under Part P, 2. It doesn'teven require a minor works cert as you have not modified or extended the circuit and 3. technically any Joe Bloggs is permitted to change an accessory in their own home..

The way I would proceed in this instance is to change the fitting and issue a minor works detailing the conditions you feel need bringing to her attention together with any other departures from BS 7671 and that is it.

mechelec · Dec 29, 2009

it might be just a loose wire in which case fitting a new CU may seem over the top dont you think.

RexT · Dec 30, 2009

Hi Julian C,

I think this is happening all over at the moment and as people have said in the real world you would do this.... and then they say if this happens and if that happens.

The best advice I can give you is to firstly fix the light. When someone says they have received a 'tingle' they are in effect saying there is a fault and leaving it alone isnt right.

I agree with the apparent options you have and can only help by saying that we should install to the latest edition inrespective of cost, however again in the real world the cost does play a part and there are varying dergrees of acceptability according to legislation. I would fix the light having agreed what needs doing and then point out what is required to update to the 17th edition. You are correct in that it does need RCD(s) and as you have said there doesnt appear to be a plug in upgrade for a 3036 to provide RCD protection as far as I know.

Hope this helps,

Best wishes

Rex

Davey101 · Dec 30, 2009

Agree with Lister and Brady here.
As I understand it, if you are just fixing a fault, you dont have to make sure the rest of the installation complies with regs.
The IEE regs are NOT retrospective, i.e, just because the lights in my house are not RCD protected, it doesnt mean that I have to replace my consumer unit with a new one. IIRC, only the circuit you are installing needs to comply with current regs. You still have to check other things, such as bonding and earthing arrangements of course.

Besides which, we were all more than happy to install lights and plenty of other circuits without RCD's a couple of years ago, people aren't going to start dropping dead now

sparky1502 · Jan 1, 2010

our jobs as electricians is not about fixing lights or extending ring mains or fitting rcbos its about saftey...we make electricity safe for other people to use...but the everyday consumer is blighted by programmes on the telly about rouge traders and the trust aspect of our job is all but gone...what elderly person has to realise is that there life is in danger, after explaining this to them i'd ask them again to reconsider the new install if they still refused i'd walk away u have to live with what u do for the rest of your life....saftey first....