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I didnt think these things really existed. I went to see a shower that wasnt working (8.5kw triton shower) I opened the case up and the wire going to the connector was 1.5mm twin and earth. I took the shower off the wall and the 1.5mm cable was twisted together and taped up to the 6mm cable.. No earth was connected. I asked the lady how long the shower had been fitted. She said 18 months. It seems that it had worked ok like that for the last 18 months ?? . No rcd, by the way. I asked who had fitted it. she said "A plumber".
 
8.5 KW through a 1.5 mm cable.... is a little hairy to say the least. The only thing that probably prevented it burning was that it was such a short length. No RCD or earth connection is plain stupidity even for a plumber. Can't you report the idiot?
 
She must have 2 minute showers.

I recently replaced a shower switch that had burned out along with a few cm of the 10mm neutral connected to it (the shower was 9-9.5kw). The owner admitted to spending ages under the shower every day
 
In a former life (I don't do domestic work any longer, as a rule) showers were almost always the one area I would be guaranteed to find issues.

I've seen so many examples of this kind of faeces, it's untrue. 9kW showers run in 0.75 three core flex? No earth? Cable run in copper pipe into the shower enclosure (and not earthed), RCD enclosure fitted in the shower enclosure!!!! Showers "spurred" off the nearest lighting feed.

Without putting too fine a point on it, it was a standard response to show them what a first degree shock burn looks like when modeled by a person, condemn and disconnect the shower (including cutting cable short), and finally pointing out that they wouldn't expect me to plumb the shower, so why expect a plumber to cable it at all, let alone properly.

I ran an "awareness" campaign around my local plumbers many years ago when first in business, offering to do the electrical side of their shower installs, with certification. It got me a lot of work, not only in showers, but also in central heating, and boiler spurs.

It's often a shame these days I think, that there doesn't seem to be any co-operation between trades, and it's something I always suggest to guys kicking off on their own, when I talk to them at trade counters, etc. Find good existing related trades people, and network - help them and help yourself, and build an informal team passing work round among yourselves.

And it's an idea that I think would fly for a lot of guys in this weather/economic climate too.
 
I agree if you stand tall and do a campaign then that will be a sure pull for work.
I've been thinking along those lines but just not ready to stick my neck out that far yet.
 
I have seen this so many times, went to a house some years ago, man had fits after a shower ever day. Checked the shower out found the shower was live in when wet no rcds then.10kw shower 2.5mm T& E no earth. When he had a shower he picked up the shower metal head and wam every day and had a fit. Trading standard / HSE took the plumber who fitted it to court 6 months prison and a big fine and the man had no more fits. Went to a kitchen after a fire this week the insurance had sent people out who had cut all the lighting down took all the socket faces off just pulled the wires apart and when I went in I found all the circuits were still live phone to the HSE/ trading standards are dealing with it, two hours to make safe.The poor home owner had small children could have been so nasty.The kitchen people said they were fine and just to throw the cables (still live ) above what was left of the ceiling to be forgotten.
 
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I agree if you stand tall and do a campaign then that will be a sure pull for work.
I've been thinking along those lines but just not ready to stick my neck out that far yet.

It's worth doing mate. Gently, mind :)

There's two strands to that though - a campaign to improve trades and public understanding of the correct way to do things, is one.

I think, more essential for now, and we're already seeing evidence in terms of work quantity and so on - is that we need to be finding different ways forward in terms of survival and growth, or at least existence.

For that reason, I think the idea of a loose co-operative with other trades is diamond for now - getting four or five other trades around you who have a vested and mutual interest in recommending you, over any other sparks, and like wise, you for them.

Doing this, there's so many ways in which you can benefit everyone in the network too - opportunities open up that weren't there before, advertising is easier, in all senses, you can promote on the basis that everyone quality checks everyone else on the job, and so on.

I honestly think it's little angles like that which will pull the strongest through this current economic phase - which isn't set to improve drastically for at least a couple of years yet. We're looking at growth of only around 1.5% over the next fiscal year, according to "experts" - which realistically means you won't get any busier on your own than you are now. It's worth noting that some of that "growth" in the economy comes down to things like the increase in VAT, which doesn't benefit us at all, and cuts in services too, which also doesn't really benefit us at all.

Diversity and innovation are your friends at this time, I think. Those who can react to that, and move in new ways will win.

The fundamental problem we are all facing to some extent now too, is that however important safety is, it will ALWAYS be trumped by affordability. Humans will run the risk of death quite happily, so long as they can afford to pay the rent, and eat.

And that translates for us into a major headache in getting rid of cowboys who can "do the job" cheaper than we can by omitting all those "irrelevant" safety features we do, but they don't. Sadly, I think our only way around this, for now, is to think smarter, and try to find ways to provide the proper service, within the budgets available.

What's more worrying, is that the big companies, who got hit hardest in the recession are already using their reserves to discount heavily, to provide at least some of that service, at prices Joe Public will pay. Clearly, us little guys can't afford to do that, and survive, alone.

OK - depressing rant off - it wasn't meant to be doom and gloom, but about being positive and finding a way through the mire Labour and the banks left us with!
 
found one a few months ago wired in 1.5mm flex off the ring main, bathroom done by the plumber , it happens all the time bathroom had been done 18 months ago and was used every day ,, this is why Part P is a complete and utter waste of time !!!!should be renamed Electricians tax
 
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Good points Bill but this 'co-operative" system as always been around unfortunately with the part P fiasco it as become redundant.

Through out my contracting career I always worked with builders on the co-op system. Extensions, new builds, whatever they ineveitably used the same contractors for plumbing and electrical and the reverse would be the same.

What changed IMO was the part P and the self certification schemes where you now can have plumbers, gas fitters, kitchen fitters getting a Part scope creditation and therefore able to sign off there own minor electrical work.

Just think of the outrage if we were allowed to do our own gas fitting, not that hard to run a bit of copper pipe to a boiler, and then pressure test it, bet it could be taught on a 5 day course and off us sparks go. There would be murders about this, but nothing was done when other trades can be classed competant.

IMO the Part P as done more damage to our industry than all the Eastern European Sparks could ever do. With anyone within the building industry taking a 5 day course to become competant, and now anyone outside the industry can do a 7 week DI course and also be competant.

Said this many many times I'm worried and concerned where my industry is going. It will take several serious incidents to change this state of sorry aafairs, but until then we are an accident waiting to happen.
 
Good points Bill but this 'co-operative" system as always been around unfortunately with the part P fiasco it as become redundant.

Through out my contracting career I always worked with builders on the co-op system. Extensions, new builds, whatever they ineveitably used the same contractors for plumbing and electrical and the reverse would be the same.

What changed IMO was the part P and the self certification schemes where you now can have plumbers, gas fitters, kitchen fitters getting a Part scope creditation and therefore able to sign off there own minor electrical work.

Just think of the outrage if we were allowed to do our own gas fitting, not that hard to run a bit of copper pipe to a boiler, and then pressure test it, bet it could be taught on a 5 day course and off us sparks go. There would be murders about this, but nothing was done when other trades can be classed competant.

IMO the Part P as done more damage to our industry than all the Eastern European Sparks could ever do. With anyone within the building industry taking a 5 day course to become competant, and now anyone outside the industry can do a 7 week DI course and also be competant.

Said this many many times I'm worried and concerned where my industry is going. It will take several serious incidents to change this state of sorry aafairs, but until then we are an accident waiting to happen.

I think this is true, Malcolm, sadly. Part P as currently implemented is a disaster, and I don't think there's many here who would disagree. It was a major factor in our (my) moving away from domestic work altogether.

The argument about running gas was one which was pushed around a lot at the time Part P was first mooted too - and again, Corgi, at the time, made so much noise about how dangerous it would be for other trades to start running in gas lines, etc.

We are in the same boat now with Part P, you're right.

But, maybe a little idealistically, I still think we can make some sort of advantage out of it with the right education/advertising - encouraging some of these other trades to give up their Part P and keep the fees is one way - and really, financial benefit is probably the major way in which any co-op will successfully bond at this point.

The motivation behind Part P, and the 5 week wonder courses, was intended to improve safety, in terms of competence. As you point out, that has been abused to the extreme, and is also not policed at all. The reality is, as you say, that we have "ex-street sweepers" now claiming to be qualified electricians, who can notify their own work, and that seems to satisfy everyone until the place burns down - or more usually until one of us notices, shows the work up to be the crap it is, and then get lambasted because we're just out to make a quid.

I understand your points totally mate - and agree - but in part it was exactly that which we need to find ways around too, for everyone's benefits. I don't know that it'll be easy - it won't, but part of it needs to be about overcoming every objection, and making it work, for sure.
 
Where will it all end, Part P was brought out with the best intentions to stop have a go Harry. As we were already working to BS7671 and HSE,EAWA we were all doing it how it should be done and didn`t need anymore red tape. What was wrong with the good old days of the MEB coming round and signing it off and doing the meter work. After so many years of it working why did they throw it all up in the air 5 years down the road and Part P doesn`t work and the customer always wants the cheapest job, so your eastern european spark on £35 a day or 5 day wonder will always be cheaper as we can not compete with all the overheads of me.
 
Understanding all above but also many outfits, one man bands etc were doing electrical work unqualified before Part P and then when Part P courses come along at an affordable duration these same outfits done the course and put it on there van. They must do a safer job after some training than none. That has to be an improvement although not ideal.

As far as competence is concerned that is up to the individual and the scheme provider not the 1,3,5 day, or 3,4 yr course.

IMO if your running from the Part P / domestic situation then your fueling what you are disagreeing with when you should be standing strong and enduring / ensuring correction under the label of safety.

Campaign as was mentioned earlier.

Why oh why has Part P not been given proper pubic awareness alike Gas Safe?
I'm sure this will happen quickly if as many Part P prosecutions take place as the gas fitters?

I'm sure the above will agree but we have to keep our nose on the bread trail.
 
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