Vettels reaction on hamilton in azerbarjain race

[Zerax]

Corrected that for you, the rules do state all lapped cars can unlap themselves not just a selected few

This was just another error in Masi's error strewn race directorship in F1. Yesterday was as farcical as the two laps behind the safety car that became a race with half points awarded

With regard to the first lap decision Max has been moaning all season about being pushed off track or not being given enough room yet his lunging late braking antics force others off the track with nowhere to go

Agreed.

Verstappen has got away with so much this season... the FIA were clearly desperate for someone other than Hamilton to win the title. Just look at that 'brake test' stunt that Verstappen pulled in Saudi Arabia... I'm sure that any other driver would have been black flagged for that ! Instead he was given a 10 sec penalty that actually wasn't a penalty because the had 11 seconds to play with ahead of Bottas. Awarding penalties after the race, when it's already known what the outcome of that penalty would be... needs to stop... it's open to far too much manipulation !!

 

[Zerax]

Corrected that for you, the rules do state all lapped cars can unlap themselves not just a selected few

Actually... the rules say "any" lapped cars... that's one of the ways that the FIA wriggled out of the protest. They argued that 'any' does not mean 'all'... even though in every other safety car situation ever... it has meant 'all' !

 

[brianmoooore]

A VSC would have been more appropriate to maintain the race positioning

Too dangerous for a VSC with a telehandler on track.

 

[brianmoooore]

Corrected that for you, the rules do state all lapped cars can unlap themselves not just a selected few

This was just another error in Masi's error strewn race directorship in F1. Yesterday was as farcical as the two laps behind the safety car that became a race with half points awarded

With regard to the first lap decision Max has been moaning all season about being pushed off track or not being given enough room yet his lunging late braking antics force others off the track with nowhere to go

I don't think you'll find anyone that disagrees that Spa was a farce. You can see exactly where the circuit is from 30 miles away. It's right under that big black cloud in the distance, often with lightning forking from it.
On the first lap. Max was 2/3 past Hamilton by the corner apex, and he managed to slow the car enough to make the corner without leaving the circuit. Hamilton had the choices of backing out and staying on track, causing a collision and taking both cars out, or sailing across the painted tarmac, taking the place back illegally.
It's the circuit designer's fault as much as anything. There should always be consequences of leaving the track, whether it's gravel, high kerbs or chicanes.
Re: the lapped cars, see my post 39

 

[UNG]

what difference would it have made if all the lapped cars had been let through, instead of just the relevant ones, other than taking longer, and having the unsatisfactory effect of the race finishing behind the safety car?

Masi created a hybrid rule off his own bat by only letting 5 cars through in sheer desperation to create a supposed racing ending when all he created was a predictable ending. Why did we need to watch 57 laps for that ending when one lap was enough

It was all done in a hurry and the only winner in the end was acrimony

F1 has suffered more damage in 10 minutes than at any other time in it's history I for one won't bother next season and judging by the comments on a number of sites I'm not on my own

 

[brianmoooore]

and judging by the comments on a number of sites I'm not on my own

Try Dutch sites, or, for that matter, non UK sites.
What happened in this race was what normally happens when a safety car is deployed, as it was quite correctly in this case, and I can't see what difference it made, other than time saving, by just letting a few cars through.
If it had happened ,say, five laps earlier, all lapped cars would have overtaken, and the result would have been the same. Lewis had the same oppurtunity to change tyres as Max

 

[Midwest]

Try Dutch sites, or, for that matter, non UK sites.
What happened in this race was what normally happens when a safety car is deployed, as it was quite correctly in this case, and I can't see what difference it made, other than time saving, by just letting a few cars through.
If it had happened ,say, five laps earlier, all lapped cars would have overtaken, and the result would have been the same. Lewis had the same oppurtunity to change tyres as Max

Can’t seem to post, without quoting someone, so apologies @brianmoooore .

It would be interesting to hear the views of Max’s fans. I favour Lewis, but I still think the WDC was robbed from him. He was consistently in front of Max, even with his extra pit stops. Mercedes strategy was based on the rules of the safety car, not to pit, then Masi orchestrated the end.

The shenanigans of teams telling the RD what to do, should stop as well.

interesting article from the BBC;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59643988

 

[Midwest]

Can’t seem to post, without quoting someone, so apologies @brianmoooore .

It would be interesting to hear the views of Max’s fans. I favour Lewis, but I still think the WDC was robbed from him. He was consistently in front of Max, even with his extra pit stops. Mercedes strategy was based on the rules of the safety car, not to pit, then Masi orchestrated the end.

The shenanigans of teams telling the RD what to do, should stop as well.

interesting article from the BBC;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59643988

Max’s aggressive driving has to be reviewed. Have not got the quotes, but even the other drivers seem to question it.

 

[Zerax]

If it had happened ,say, five laps earlier, all lapped cars would have overtaken, and the result would have been the same. Lewis had the same oppurtunity to change tyres as Max

No... it would not. The reason that Mercedes did not bring in Hamilton is because they were applying the 'sporting regulations' and precedent (the two things go hand in hand, precedent allows understanding of the rules). The 'sporting regulations' and precedent said that there would not have been enough time for the race to finish under a green flag (i.e. normal racing)... hence they maintained track position by not pitting Hamilton.

So... looking at what might have happened if the safety car was 5 laps earlier... Mercedes would have realised that there was enough time for green flag ending, and they would almost certainly have pitted Hamilton for fresh soft tyres.

*Any reference to 'sporting regulations' and precedent above, does of course mean the ones that existed at that time. We now appear to have some new ones, that I assume will be written in before the start of next season. They will also need to amend the rule about overtaking under a safety car... that you are now allowed to "nudge ahead", but previously you were not and would have been penalised for it.

 

[Midwest]

Max’s aggressive driving has to be reviewed. Have not got the quotes, but even the other drivers seem to question it.

Last year Masi at the Belgian GP, he clarified that ‘All’ lapped cars had to unlapp themselves before the safety car retired.

 

[mattg4321]

I think Max deserved the championship as he had some bad luck earlier in the season, that Lewis didn’t really have. Baku in particular. He could’ve been champion a few races ago.

However it left a very bad taste in the mouth the way it panned out the other day. I’m half expecting Masi to turn the sprinklers on at his discretion next season to try and spice things up. Maybe they could give the drivers banana skins to drop on the road too.

 

[kropaske]

No... it would not. The reason that Mercedes did not bring in Hamilton is because they were applying the 'sporting regulations' and precedent (the two things go hand in hand, precedent allows understanding of the rules).

This does not make sens whatsoever. Merc did not pit because they would loose track position and that was more important for them then having fresh tyres. At that time merc or any other team for that matter did not know how long will take for Marshalls to clear track, it could be 3 laps or 7 laps.

The 'sporting regulations' and precedent said that there would not have been enough time for the race to finish under a green flag (i.e. normal racing)... hence they maintained track position by not pitting Hamilton.

At that time merc or any other team for that matter did not know how long will take for Marshalls to clear track, it could be 3 laps or 7 laps. There is no regulation that dictates that safety car have to be out for minimum "X" laps.

So... looking at what might have happened if the safety car was 5 laps earlier... Mercedes would have realised that there was enough time for green flag ending, and they would almost certainly have pitted Hamilton for fresh soft tyres.

Not neccessary because they still could loose track position to Max. They would wait to see what red bull do and react to that. Red bull would likely pit and at the end of following lap gap could be big enough for merc to pit and came out on front. But if gap would not be big enough then this would be decision between Lewis and his engineer whether he wants to have track position and old tyres or fresh tyres and loose track position.


The only wrong thing RD did was to announce at the beginning that lapped cars will not be allowed to pass. Very unusual as well. Everything else was correct and regs were followed. RD have right to override rules regarding SC If necessary to allow for racing. All teams agreed that wherever possible they prefer to finish the race under green conditions and that what RD allow to happen.
Of course SC messed up the race for Lewis but its not the first time and certainly not the last.

 

[Midwest]

As far as I've read, RD can override the regulations, but for safety purposes only, not to spice up the racing?

At this point, it would be obvious his decision would alter the car positions and WDC, thats not his role. I take the point that all Teams, generally want races to end under green conditions. The safety car has been deployed before, and altered a race result, thats what it does, but not with just 1 lap left. MM messed up.

I can't see the WDC being revised, nor should it. The point is though, everyone plays the sport by the rules, making tactical decisions by them. Seems MM altered his plans, after prompting by CH. There will be rule changes, and one should be, Teams Mangers will not be able to speak directly to the referee, whilst the game is on.

 

[kropaske]

Ruls does not specify the reason RD can override SC. His primery job is to make sure is safe on track and when it is next priority is to resume racing and that is what he did. . Either decision he would make at this time to resume or not, he would be bombarded by either redbull camp for not restarting or merc for restarting.
I can't agree his decision alter WDC, it just give Max a chance, Lewis was still ahead.
Look how long took Lewis to overtake Perez and he was on ruin soft compound that should be changed long time ago but he put a fantastic defence.

I don't think they will change that rule about TM speaking to RD but they may not broadcast it.

For me redbull is a big winner here as a team. Starting from fantastic defence from Perez to great tactical decisions and finally Max great move on Lewis.
Merc really dissapoint here. Botas was not there for Lewis and tactically they played very safe. It looked like when Lewis pulled away they left him on his own without any support to finish the job.

 

[littlespark]

Sorry about this….


I heard Lewis Hamilton had an audition to join Musical Youth but didn’t make it….

He failed to pass the dutchie on the left hand side

 

[Zerax]

Ruls does not specify the reason RD can override SC. His primery job is to make sure is safe on track and when it is next priority is to resume racing and that is what he did.

Actually... there are two things upon which the regulations are based and are contained in section 1.1.1 as follows

1.1.1 The FIA shall be the sole international sporting authority entitled to make and enforce regulations based on the fundamental principles of safety and sporting fairness, for the encouragement and control of automobile Competitions, and to organise FIA International Championships. (that's my underlining)

So... by bringing Verstappen (on fresh soft tyres) right up behind Hamilton (on 44 lap old hard tyres) for a one lap 'shoot out' where there was only every going to be one winner was clearly a breach of the FIAs own fundamental principles.

The FIA should rip up the existing Sporting Regulations and just replace with a single sentence; "The FIA can do whatever they want."

 

[Zerax]

At that time merc or any other team for that matter did not know how long will take for Marshalls to clear track, it could be 3 laps or 7 laps. There is no regulation that dictates that safety car have to be out for minimum "X" laps.

All F1 teams have highly intelligent and highly paid tacticians to work out all this stuff. If I was an F1 tactician (and I'm not as I'm not intelligent enough), I'd have analysed all previous safety car deployments, to understand the length of time they were out... based on the amount of debris, the track, the distance from the track access point etc etc... so that if there was a crash and the team wanted to know the answer to the question "Should we pit ??" I'd quickly have the right answer...

That right answer would, of course, be based on the Sporting Regulations and precedent and not the whim of the RD to manipulate the result... and that's were Mercedes fell down.

 

[kropaske]

Actually... there are two things upon which the regulations are based and are contained in section 1.1.1 as follows

We can agree that the safety part was meet as track was clear and no danger present.
As for fairness as RD you have 2 options:
1. Restart race with Lewis 1st, Max 2nd and let them race
2. Not restart race and let them finish behind safety car so Lewis wins.

RD is not interested on who have what tyres and what positions they are. They did not hand the win to Max. What they did is just allow for racing.
They cannot not restart the race when is safe do do so and said " we did not restart the race cause we feel sorry for Lewis cause he had worn tyres and he could loose" - do you think that would be fair?
Lewis was still 1st when they resume and as Perez proved it could defend himself well.

All F1 teams have highly intelligent and highly paid tacticians to work out all this stuff.

Yes of course they have its part of the game. But they only humans which often makes mistakes. How many times we have seen someone forgot to tight the wheel nut or they forget to bring tyres or the make wrong call as to pit or not. They don't have answer to every scenario. You don't really think when Latify crash they start dig in the computer to find this particular scenario in the meantime another person counting debris on track to punch that in their model and see what possible outcome can be given position of the cars on track, that would take forever. They only have split second to make the call. For them it was simple - if we have a gap then we pit if not we stay on to have track position. Mercedes fall because they did not work as a team and they make wrong choices

 

[Midwest]

Not just LH who missed out, those other cars that were not allowed to unlap themselves, were affected. Also the safety came in straight after the lap cars had passed, where in the past it waited after the next lap.

The cynical amongst us, might think someone might not want a Merc driver wining the WDC. There’s some scudulkery going on, much like the Ferrari fuel thing, swept under the carpet

 

[Zerax]

We can agree that the safety part was meet as track was clear and no danger present.
As for fairness as RD you have 2 options:
1. Restart race with Lewis 1st, Max 2nd and let them race. They could have red-flagged the race when the Latifi crash happened... but that's highly irregular for such a 'simple' crash. Red flagging a race is only done if they really really have to. Red flagging would have allowed all cars to change tyres though, so from that perspective, the RD would have contravened less rules than what his actual actions did.
2. Not restart race and let them finish behind safety car so Lewis wins. The decision on what to do or not to do should never include consideration of who may win or lose... it just has to be fair for everyone. So if sticking to the rules meant that it was a safety car finish... then so be it... that's what the rules say.

 

[Zerax]

There’s some scudulkery going on, much like the Ferrari fuel thing, swept under the carpet

That's a hell of a fire risk !

 

[Lister1987]

That's a hell of a fire risk !

It's alright; Section 442 has that covered.....what do you mean wrong regs? THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

 

[kropaske]

They could have red-flagged the race when the Latifi crash happened... but that's highly irregular for such a 'simple' crash. Red flagging a race is only done if they really really have to. Red flagging would have allowed all cars to change tyres though, so from that perspective, the RD would have contravened less rules than what his actual actions did.

They could not bring the red flag as you clearly explained. Red flag is for a specific safety reasons and not to allow all cars to change tyres or make the race little bit more fair for some drivers.


The decision on what to do or not to do should never include consideration of who may win or lose... it just has to be fair for everyone.

You are absolutely right on first part but there is no way that any decisions made by RD will be fair for all drivers/teams no matter how hard he will try, there will always be someone that will loose out which is always the case in situations with SC or VSC. He based his decisions on safety and not on how to make the race fair back again after SC.

So if sticking to the rules meant that it was a safety car finish... then so be it... that's what the rules say.

How is safety car finish sticking to the rules if track is clear and its safe to race that would be the opposite.

 

[Midwest]

But Mercedes decided on their tactics based on the rules, and what previously MM had said about ALL lapped cars, unlapping themselves & SC procedure; LH race engineer said that to him, 'the race will finish under the safety car'.

MM changed his mind twice, no cars will unlap, then after pressure from from CH, he let some unlap themselves. Perhaps he did that because he had previously had pressure from TW.

Lets face it referees make wrong decisions all the time; 'they' just have to accept he messed up. I don't think it should change the result, just get a new RD; MM hasn't been strong all season.

 

[Midwest]

'Max, you might be WDC, but please address me by my correct title when speaking to me; either Sir Lewis or just Sir'.

 

[mattg4321]

It’s all about consistency. Those defending the RD and his actions make good points, but decisions were made that have never been made before and procedures changed and precedents not followed. It was a farce.

How is a team meant to get their strategy right if there’s no consistency in the decision making?

If it had always been up to the RD (rather than an established precedent) which lapped cars were let through and at what point the safety car would then go in, then Merc may have made a different strategy call. They probably didn’t expect the decision making to be different just because there was so much riding on those last few laps too.

 

[kropaske]

I don't know why you keep mention this strategy calls based on rules and precedense. No matter what decision RD would make, merc would do excacly the same thing which was not to stop Sir Lewis.
But lets analyse this:
Latify crashes, SC out, at this point nobody's know if they will manage to restart or not, Max 10s being Sir Lewis who passing Latifi's wreck and approaching last corner, at that point he knows he is screwed and this, what would appear as easy win start slip away. If they pit, Max will stay out and they will loose track position, if race does not restart game over for merc, if they restart it would be down to Lewis to pass Max so merc do right call not to pit.
Max then pit as he would do opposite to what would merc do, they have to gamble.
At next lap cars are much closer together and if merc decide to pit they would lost not 1 but potentially more places so merc do right thing not to pit again. From now on only thing merc can do is pray so the race will not reatart, sadly for them that was not the case.
Those decisions were the only logical decisions they could make regardless of what RD or other stewards would do and what regulations state.
Merc was simply very, very unlucky.

IMHO wrong decisions has been made earlier on. I think merc should keep Lewis out when Max pit 1st time. They had approx 6s gap so they could easily run at least 2-3 laps. With Lewis pace there was high chance that he would be on par even on slightly worn tyres. This could play to his advantage later in the race, and if he would be way to slow they could bring him in next lap so no harm done. But they did not even tried that.
Second wrong decision was not to pit under VSC later in the race but this was bit more riskier as redbull could take track position at the time but then Lewis already complained about the tyres.

This is the type of races I want to see where emotions running high, adrenaline level are sky high there is excitements and drama, and I don't care who came victorious at the end. On this occasion was Max, but next time maybe Lewis or even someone else. I already looking forward to next season and to see how teams are prepared for quite a big changes to the car.

 

[Zerax]

kropaske... you need to realise that all F1 teams employ highly skilled and very clever people to work out strategy. Yes, there are situations where there is no right or wrong answer and it's 50/50 on what they do... but for the vast majority of cases, the computer modelling will tell them the optimal option. So... whilst it's fun to hear all your theories about what they should or should not have done... I suspect they still knew better.

The reason why it went wrong for Hamilton is solely because the RD decided to go against the rule book (that everyone, including RB were working to) and his own advice from the Eifel GP last year... to come up with his own rules. That threw everybody !!!

Personally, I'd like to know why he did it. What was going through his head at that time ? Did he have any pressure from Liberty Media (who own F1) ? What pressure did he have from the FIA ? Why did Horner tell him "... we only need one lap" ? One lap for what ? To win the race ? Exactly why did the FIA change the rules for 2021 to impede only 2 teams (Merc & Aston Martin) ? Why did he not black flag Verstappen for that 'brake test' stunt in the last GP ? Why has Verstappen been allowed to get away with some very dangerous driving all season ?

You may like these sort of races... but for me... F1 is starting to smell very highly of corruption... and that's not good for any sport ! Not sure I'll be following it next season, unless there's some pretty massive changes at the FIA.

 

[Midwest]

Read this posted elsewhere. Not sure if the author is real, or the first few paragraphs are correct legal terminology, but here it is;

Analysing the FIA Rulebook after the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix — A Lawyers Perspective

So it’s finally over. Or is it? Whilst we are in limbo over whether Mercedes will actually appeal the decision of the stewards, it is…

medium.com

 

[kropaske]

Zerax, I think it's time to leave it at that and agree to dissagre. We clearly see and interpret things in slightly different way. This whole situation will be going on for quite some time i suspect. Media will exagerrate everything anyway.

However I don't think its fair you mention CH comment as TW was doing the same, they all play their games.

And why would you even bring FIA new rules. Another conspiracy against merc. Fia work on this since 2017 and everybody knew that. The change that was introduced was only part of the bigger package that we will see next year which was delayed because of covid.

And yes Max is a hard racer and so is Lewis, they both prove it and they both did some stupid things this year and in previous seasons.

I hope you will still watch next season so we can have some more debates
And if I would worry about corruption I would stop watching F1 long time ago and probably a lot other sports for that matter.

 

[Midwest]

See Mercedes have withdrawn appeal procedure, allegedly because LH did not want to win WDC via the courts.

Whilst LH has done some naughty things, he’s not in the same league as Max. Hope they do something about that in any enquiry by the FIA, for the future.

 

[Zerax]

Yeah... I just read about the withdrawal of appeal. I think that Mercedes realised that it would take a hell of a battle to win (I think nobody ever has ??) and if they did win, then they'd be portrayed in the media as sore losers, who only won because they did it in the courts etc etc. Interesting legal analysis you posted up earlier... makes it crystal clear to me.

I hope that a deal has been done for Masi to go and some specific amendments to the rules... like "the RD must stick to the rules". But I don't think that'll ever happen !

 

[mattg4321]

I think it should still have gone to court, but not to reverse the WDC result. That would be ridiculous and unfair on MV who deserves it. It would’ve been good to shine a light on the FIA though and find out why those exceptional decisions were made at such an important point in the season.

 

[kropaske]

The only place they could take it would be International Court of Appeal made from FIA appointed members, so merc would have to convince FIA to go against FIA and that's a FIA rules, how convenient...

It looks like Toto and Lewis wont be participating in tonight's FIA gala, i hope they wont be punishing them (another FIA rule) as they suffer enough already.

I think i used way too many FIA in this post...

 

[Midwest]

If I was Lewis, I’d go, get tanked up, then stuck me leg out when Max was going onto the stage to receive his trophy.

 

[Midwest]

Those on stage with Max tonight, might just need to be warned about his behaviour just before he gets his trophy; you know forcing people off the stage, like he does on track.

 

[Zerax]

I see that the new FIA president has a sense of humour when asked about penalising Hamilton for not attending the prize giving in Paris...

"At the end of the day, rules are rules,” Ben Sulayem said of Hamilton’s no-show.

 

[Midwest]

Yes rather choice. (twenty five words)