What are you responsible for when carrying out electrical work?

[HappyHippyDad]

I have been asked by Trading Standards to carry out a report on some electrical work installed by another company (5 years ago). The 'new' wet room has basically rotted away over 5 years, it has now been completely removed by another firm and is in the process of being redone.

The work by the company being investigated involved changing a shower room into wet room. I.e a completely waterproofed shower room space.

The electrical work that the company installed was as follows. Would you agree with codes?

1. Installed an IP45 extractor fan in zone 1 (see picture) - No code
2. Installed an RCD fused spur just the other side of the partition (for fan). You could in theory reach over the partition and touch the switch - C2 (This would be zone 2 IF we don't class there as being a partition - see 'further points' below)
3. Installed 2 x switched FCU's approx 60mm away from partition - could in theory get sprayed from shower - C2
4. Put washing machine and tumble dryer just the other side of partition, meaning they are in zone 2 (or zone 1 if partition not classed as partition (see picture) - C2

Further points

The partition is in place, but it is not very high. The diagram in OSG shows the partition reaching the ceiling. So perhaps I do not even class this as a partition? Is it a permanent fixed partition?

The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

The bathroom lights are just outside the zones (2.27m high). They are not IP rated but they are ELV. They are not fire rated and there is living space above. Any codes here? These lights are not IP rated so (even though they are ELV) would they be suitable for location. The company did not install the lights.

There is one ELV MR16 light just the other side of the partition which would be in zone 2 if the partition is not classed as a partition. Again not IP rated.

lastly, the bathroom lights have no RCD protection. Does this mean there should be supplementary bonding to the towel radiator from one of the circuits in the location? In theory they could touch one of the ELV lights and radiator at the same time. I believe supplementary bonding would be required as it does not meet the requirements for omission in 701.415.2

Cheers all

 

[LukeD]

Jesus...... thats beyond bad workmanship

 

[nicebutdim]

Looks as though someone almost half fitted a shower enclosure in a utility room.

 

[Spoon]

The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

IMO, you are only responsible for the circuits you are altering or adding.
If the CU is not up to scratch then this should be sorted before altering or adding extra circuits.

 

[LukeD]

IMO, you are only responsible for the circuits you are altering or adding.
If the CU is not up to scratch then this should be sorted before altering or adding extra circuits.

Many would agree...but i am of the opinion anything related that worries me gets discussed with the client and noted

 

[Spoon]

Many would agree...but i am of the opinion anything related that worries me gets discussed with the client and noted

That's where my second sentence comes into play. Nothing in the CU should worry you and the CU should be safe.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

IMO, you are only responsible for the circuits you are altering or adding.
If the CU is not up to scratch then this should be sorted before altering or adding extra circuits.

Many would agree...but i am of the opinion anything related that worries me gets discussed with the client and noted

I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

1. Installed an IP45 extractor fan in zone 1 (see picture) - No code
2. Installed an RCD fused spur just the other side of the partition (for fan). You could in theory reach over the partition and touch the switch - C2 (This would be zone 2 IF we don't class there as being a partition - see 'further points' below)
3. Installed 2 x switched FCU's approx 60mm away from partition - could in theory get sprayed from shower - C2
4. Put washing machine and tumble dryer just the other side of partition, meaning they are in zone 2 (or zone 1 if partition not classed as partition (see picture) - C2

Your coding seems about right to me.

The partition is in place, but it is not very high. The diagram in OSG shows the partition reaching the ceiling. So perhaps I do not even class this as a partition? Is it a permanent fixed partition?

I would say so, it limits zone 1. It's not like anyone can move it without getting the tool kit out.

The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

Hard to say, what were the C2s?

The bathroom lights are just outside the zones (2.27m high). They are not IP rated but they are ELV. They are not fire rated and there is living space above. Any codes here? These lights are not IP rated so (even though they are ELV) would they be suitable for location. The company did not install the lights.

No code - out of zones, and no danger as ELV (EICRs are AFAIK only coded for safety, please somebody correct this if I'm mistaken)

There is one ELV MR16 light just the other side of the partition which would be in zone 2 if the partition is not classed as a partition. Again not IP rated.

No code, no danger as ELV.

lastly, the bathroom lights have no RCD protection. Does this mean there should be supplementary bonding to the towel radiator from one of the circuits in the location? In theory they could touch one of the ELV lights and radiator at the same time. I believe supplementary bonding would be required as it does not meet the requirements for omission in 701.415.2

No. Supplementary bonding is required for ADS, and ELV isn't ADS (ie the metal parts of ELV lights aren't exposed conductive parts)

 

[Petej999]

I have been asked by Trading Standards to carry out a report on some electrical work installed by another company (5 years ago). The 'new' wet room has basically rotted away over 5 years, it has now been completely removed by another firm and is in the process of being redone.

The work by the company being investigated involved changing a shower room into wet room. I.e a completely waterproofed shower room space.

The electrical work that the company installed was as follows. Would you agree with codes?

1. Installed an IP45 extractor fan in zone 1 (see picture) - No code
2. Installed an RCD fused spur just the other side of the partition (for fan). You could in theory reach over the partition and touch the switch - C2 (This would be zone 2 IF we don't class there as being a partition - see 'further points' below)
3. Installed 2 x switched FCU's approx 60mm away from partition - could in theory get sprayed from shower - C2
4. Put washing machine and tumble dryer just the other side of partition, meaning they are in zone 2 (or zone 1 if partition not classed as partition (see picture) - C2

Further points

The partition is in place, but it is not very high. The diagram in OSG shows the partition reaching the ceiling. So perhaps I do not even class this as a partition? Is it a permanent fixed partition?

The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

The bathroom lights are just outside the zones (2.27m high). They are not IP rated but they are ELV. They are not fire rated and there is living space above. Any codes here? These lights are not IP rated so (even though they are ELV) would they be suitable for location. The company did not install the lights.

There is one ELV MR16 light just the other side of the partition which would be in zone 2 if the partition is not classed as a partition. Again not IP rated.

lastly, the bathroom lights have no RCD protection. Does this mean there should be supplementary bonding to the towel radiator from one of the circuits in the location? In theory they could touch one of the ELV lights and radiator at the same time. I believe supplementary bonding would be required as it does not meet the requirements for omission in 701.415.2

Cheers all

View attachment 95739

Anything you touch, alter etc I would think, of course if you are a switch on Bang merchant nothing

 

[westward10]

Are they asking you to carry out a Report or an EICR. When I have done this sort of thing they want a factual report not an EICR.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Are they asking you to carry out a Report or an EICR. When I have done this sort of thing they want a factual report not an EICR.

oo, interesting, could you explain a little more the difference please Westward?

I think it is more 'me' that has suggested an EICR on the wet room, as I didn't realise there was anything else.

 

[littlespark]

At first look it doesn’t look great.

Your point 3… you say 60mm… is that right or do you mean 600? Which takes it to the next zone.

I wouldn’t class a shower screen as a partition. Although a thin frame with a bit of wet wall panelling doesn’t sound much more substantial.

A lot of kitchen/bathroom fitters will just fit an rcd spur to cover their work, and never even look at the db except to switch it off and on again.
Was any testing done? Certs available?

Is the light ELV, or SELV?


I think you might just have to do an EICR just for the affected circuits as you normally would, then write a page or two to elaborate on the specific problems.
Maybe avoid words like “should” and “must” and go with “may” on your report.

If TS are trying to get the company prosecuted, then your report will be evidential.
Can you honestly say what they did was against the regs at the time? Or their understanding of the regs regarding what a “partition” is?
.

 

[westward10]

oo, interesting, could you explain a little more the difference please Westward?

I think it is more 'me' that has suggested an EICR on the wet room, as I didn't realise there was anything else.

Not done it for a while and your case differs somewhat as no one has died or claimed to have received an electrical shock. Reports I have done have been house fires, death from electrocution and people who have claimed to have received a shock in factories, the latter often chancers but in one instance they had a genuine claim. In your situation the fact things have 'rotted away' is irrelevant to the electrical installation so they are looking for an expert opinion to reinforce the claim over their incompetence. Personally I would compile a written report citing departures from BS7671, they don't want chapter and verse just facts and the possible consequences of these departures. You really need to know what they are expecting from you.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Not done it for a while and your case differs somewhat as no one has died or claimed to have received an electrical shock. Reports I have done have been house fires, death from electrocution and people who have claimed to have received a shock in factories, the latter often chancers but in one instance they had a genuine claim. In your situation the fact things have 'rotted away' is irrelevant to the electrical installation so they are looking for an expert opinion to reinforce the claim over their incompetence. Personally I would compile a written report citing departures from BS7671, they don't want chapter and verse just facts and the possible consequences of these departures. You really need to know what they are expecting from you.

Thankyou Westward, that's really helpful.

 

[westward10]

If you are going to do something like this you must be 100% confident in what you are quoting but as I say you really need to know what they want.

 

[Spoon]

I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

I can't find anything that says that you are responsible for the entire installation when you just add or alter a circuit.

 

[Vortigern]

I assume the fan is not ELV? I am also going to assume you cannot rely on the current edition of BS7671 but would have to rely on the extant edition in 2017. Which might put a different complexion on things. i.e. no RCD for lights was not required then. I can't see a shower screeen as a fixed permanent fixture. As it is possible to replace/remove it etc. Also the word partition means to set apart, which clearly the shower screen does not as it allows access to the other side. Albeit limited which would not be the case for a proper partition.

 

[westward10]

An extract fan in zone 1 does not have to be SELV and this is where you need to be confident in what you are quoting.

 

[littlespark]

i.e. no RCD for lights was not required then.

But rcd for all circuits within a room containing a bath or shower, was….

So that would mean any circuit in that entire room…. Whatever the room is…. Utility room?

 

[Rockingit]

If you are going to do something like this you must be 100% confident in what you are quoting but as I say you really need to know what they want.

@HappyHippyDad ...... My first thoughts on this aren't about the electrical in's and out's, it's about covering your own arse for any opinions you provide as this is borderline 'professional witness' territory. You need to have 'beyond reproach' qualifications and experience, insurance for professional indemnity.... etc. Saying this as a professional mate, not having a go! Overall, I'd say this was a job for a Scam engineer or a professional CEng.

 

[Vortigern]

But rcd for all circuits within a room containing a bath or shower, was

Not sure what edition we are talking, I guess 17th? Even for ELV lighting? Oh dear.
Errm yeha just found it 17th

Regulation: 710.411.3.3​

In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower it is now a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including lighting and shower circuits.

 

[littlespark]

Not sure what edition we are talking, I guess 17th? Even for ELV lighting? Oh dear.
Errm yeha just found it 17th

Regulation: 710.411.3.3​

In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower it is now a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including lighting and shower circuits.

I was just thinking that 18th edition came out 2018, so before that would be 17th, 3rd ammendment, and 18th introduced rcd for all luminaires. Bath and shower rooms was before that, and sockets that can be used for outdoor equipment was, I guess 16th??

 

[Lister1987]

I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

132.16 alterations and additions, you need to be sure that the installation is safe and meets requirements before making additions or alterations.

You WILL be directly responsible for anything you add or alter such as changing switchgear, moving cable around, adding in new circuits (and by ensuring other circuits aren't affected (a loose connection may have come out as you are pulling your new cables in), labelling etc), it can be argued you (as a competent person) will be responsible by proxy for ensuring the client knows that the state of the CU before and after your work, still needs work, that it complies but you HIGHLY RECOMMEND that it gets some care and attention.

By checking all connections after you've completed yours and advising that client of best practices, making the aware of any deficiencies in previous workmanship then as far as Reg 29 goes you're cover.

You went above and beyond your work to ensure your work hasn't negatively impacted the existing installation, you've made them aware of the present requirement for nonflame propagatibg materials and suggested some improvements, the rest is done to them.

 

[Avo Mk8]

@HappyHippyDad ...... My first thoughts on this aren't about the electrical in's and out's, it's about covering your own arse for any opinions you provide as this is borderline 'professional witness' territory. You need to have 'beyond reproach' qualifications and experience, insurance for professional indemnity.... etc. Saying this as a professional mate, not having a go! Overall, I'd say this was a job for a Scam engineer or a professional CEng.

I agree with above. It is getting into "expert witness" territory and will soon become that.
Presumably Trading Standards have asked for a report because they are considering taking legal action.
If that is the case, and they do, HappyHippyDad you'll likely be asked to be their expert witness, given you did the work that led them to take action. They won't want to pay someone else to do the same work over again!
With that in mind, there's guidance from the Justice Department on preparing an expert witness report (link below - see just section 3.2)

Obviously you are not at that stage now, but it might help picture what might ultimately be required.
I think the report requires narrative text to describe to non-technical people, in plain english, the "situation", your credentials, what you've been asked to look at, what you have found, along with your EICR as an appendix, not as the main deliverable.

Fortunately I've never had to attend court as an expert witness, but I've seen it can be a distressing experience. The defence lawyers job is to discredit an expert witness in whatever way they can, and the fact we're discussing this, and the technical issues here, may have already created a problem if the scenario I described at the start actually plays out .

PRACTICE DIRECTION 35 – EXPERTS AND ASSESSORS – Civil Procedure Rules

www.justice.gov.uk

On the other hand I may be overly paranoid, and all Trading Standards want is a quick opinion, and not anything further

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Ok.. I'm now wishing I'd said 'no'
I've written up and sent a report in layman's terms, siting regulations where required. We'll see what happens and I will update.

 

[loz2754]

Regarding the fixed partition -
The shower has no basin, therefore zone 1 extends to 1.2 metres from the fixed water outlet and further out from the partition (there is no zone 2)
as shown in the diagram on page 243 of the wiring regulations:



701.55 Current-using equipment -

In zone 1, the list of permitted equipment includes ventilation (fans), but not washing machines and tumble dryers.

 

[123]

@HappyHippyDad are you at this job on behalf of trading standards etc, or is it because you have flagged up something or was there already?

I'd be very wary of getting involved in this, as a minimum check your Indemnity Insurance. Post #20 from @Rockingit has all that needs said about it though.

Personally if it was me, I'd pass on it

 

[littlespark]

Another grey area with the regs….

Since when does a domestic shower have a “fixed” water outlet?
Ok, some do, but the majority are on the end of a flexible hose and can be orientated all ways.

If you’re going to say “I can put this here because it’s outside the zones”….. then check whether the shower is fixed or not.




Why have I just noticed someone wearing glasses in the OP picture??
I swear they weren’t there before.

 

[Lister1987]

Another grey area with the regs….

Since when does a domestic shower have a “fixed” water outlet?
Ok, some do, but the majority are on the end of a flexible hose and can be orientated all ways.

If you’re going to say “I can put this here because it’s outside the zones”….. then check whether the shower is fixed or not..

I thought exactly this! Wonder if IET will ever put a note there about WHERE the fixed point is in relation to showers with hoses and not fixed heads? Some will argue the FIXED point is out the bottom of the shower unit (excluding hose and head), some will save it's at the shower head itself and should include the shower head and hose - this in effect will destroy the 2.25m limit on Zone 1 as (and I'm sure we've all done it as kids; if you point thr head at the ceiling, you can easily 'make it rain' by saturating the ceiling and enjoying the raining effect .

 

[loz2754]

Another grey area with the regs….

Since when does a domestic shower have a “fixed” water outlet?
Ok, some do, but the majority are on the end of a flexible hose and can be orientated all ways.

If you’re going to say “I can put this here because it’s outside the zones”….. then check whether the shower is fixed or not.




Why have I just noticed someone wearing glasses in the OP picture??
I swear they weren’t there before.

The fixed water outlet appears to be the drain, not the shower head. See the picture I posted in #26.
From the actual regs book...

 

[littlespark]

I'm sure we've all done it as kids; if you point thr head at the ceiling, you can easily 'make it rain

Your mother must be so happy with you….

The fixed water outlet appears to be the drain, not the shower head. See the picture I posted in #26.
From the actual regs book...

A drain is not an outlet… unless your plumber isn’t very good.
Many shower trays have their drains toward one corner rather than central anyway.

That’s why I said it was a grey area.

 

[Lister1987]

Your mother must be so happy with you….


A drain is not an outlet… unless your plumber isn’t very good.
Many shower trays have their drains toward one corner rather than central anyway.

That’s why I said it was a grey area.

Ok let's call it grey but apply your own engineering judgement; in that absence of any guidance, what is your engineering judgement telling you? The regs say we can call on it so do.