When is an Electrician...an Electrician ?!?

[sparkacus]

Ive been having a debate at work and thought Id ask here for some clarification.

The practice - best word I could think of - of being an Electrician or someone who works with Electrics as a job has been around for a long, long time. Obviosuly over the years, the skill training of this practice has changed. So an older person who has worked in the industry for many years gained their training and experience by xyz. A new person to the industry will get their training and experience from xyz.

I refer to xyz as the route that person took to learn about working with electricity such as an apprenticeship, adult learning, college/university etc etc to become an 'Electrician'.

So, from a LEGAL point of view, my question is: What makes an Electrician an Electrician?

There seems to be so many different organisations, regulations, governing bodies etc, I cannot see a clear way to 'officially' be an Electrician.

For example, in the UK you need a DVLA Driving Licence to drive a car on public roads. This has been the case for many years, obviously the testing part of this has changed dramatically over the years but we must all LEGALLY possess a Driving Licence to drive a car on the public roads. If we do not then we are breaking the law and can be prosecuted.

What proof or requirement does someone actually need to say I am an Electrician? Furthermore, what training today is LEGALLY required to gain this title?

Cheers in advance

 

[Darkwood]

Welcome to the Forum

 

[Adam W]

Ive been having a debate at work and thought Id ask here for some clarification.

The practice - best word I could think of - of being an Electrician or someone who works with Electrics as a job has been around for a long, long time. Obviosuly over the years, the skill training of this practice has changed. So an older person who has worked in the industry for many years gained their training and experience by xyz. A new person to the industry will get their training and experience from xyz.

I refer to xyz as the route that person took to learn about working with electricity such as an apprenticeship, adult learning, college/university etc etc to become an 'Electrician'.

So, from a LEGAL point of view, my question is: What makes an Electrician an Electrician?

There seems to be so many different organisations, regulations, governing bodies etc, I cannot see a clear way to 'officially' be an Electrician.

For example, in the UK you need a DVLA Driving Licence to drive a car on public roads. This has been the case for many years, obviously the testing part of this has changed dramatically over the years but we must all LEGALLY possess a Driving Licence to drive a car on the public roads. If we do not then we are breaking the law and can be prosecuted.

What proof or requirement does someone actually need to say I am an Electrician? Furthermore, what training today is LEGALLY required to gain this title?

Cheers in advance

https://www.ecscard.org.uk/jib-grading.aspx

 

[sparkacus]

Thanks for the replies but this is my point, the JIB/ECS are not an organisation in law, they are simply an affiliation/certification scheme, it does not matter if a person is registered with them or not to be an Electrician and work in the Electrical Industry.

Ok, heres another example: Could anyone - regardless of their expertise - say "tomorrow Im going to be an Electrician and work in peoples houses to fix electrical equipment and rectify faults".?

Could anyone do this and not be breaking any laws or regulations?

(I should point out I am an Electrician myself but have little knowledge of domestic work, Im more industrial/marine bias.)

 

[uksparks]

You can call yourself what you like, but when the shrite hits the fan and you have no underpinning knowledge, training and experience, then the judge will say, you're not really an electrician are you.

 

[Adam W]

Thanks for the replies but this is my point, the JIB/ECS are not an organisation in law, they are simply an affiliation/certification scheme, it does not matter if a person is registered with them or not to be an Electrician and work in the Electrical Industry.

Ok, heres another example: Could anyone - regardless of their expertise - say "tomorrow Im going to be an Electrician and work in peoples houses to fix electrical equipment and rectify faults".?

Could anyone do this and not be breaking any laws or regulations?

(I should point out I am an Electrician myself but have little knowledge of domestic work, Im more industrial/marine bias.)

So what kind of "organisation in law" do you want? C&G and EAL aren't 'organisations in law' as such either. The government don't regulate electricians, or even appear to recognise the expression - the EAWR doesn't refer to an 'electrician', that is a term used generally, as is the term 'qualified electrician' and 'fully qualified electrician'.

Would you feel that the signwriting on a van stating you're an electrician is enough to stand up in court and prove your competence in line with the EAWR? How about a list of qualifications which is approved by some body of professionals such as the JIB, ECA or IET?

The evidence used in this case may help clear things up for you:
j_j_WEA8118FINAL

 

[MikeL1]

A very good post, and I am looking forward to some interesting answers, but here's another one to think about, when does an Electrician become an Electrical Technician?
I am an Electrician to trade, full old school apprenticeship trained, C&G 236 pt1 & 2, NVQ Level 3 installation, testing, commissioning, and NVQ Level 3 maintenance.
For the past 25yrs have been employed & paid as an Elec Tech in the Offshore Oil & Gas Industry, but never asked for proof of Technician qualifications? only required proof of C&G certs.

 

[Darkwood]

Thanks for the replies but this is my point, the JIB/ECS are not an organisation in law, they are simply an affiliation/certification scheme, it does not matter if a person is registered with them or not to be an Electrician and work in the Electrical Industry.

Ok, heres another example: Could anyone - regardless of their expertise - say "tomorrow Im going to be an Electrician and work in peoples houses to fix electrical equipment and rectify faults".?

Could anyone do this and not be breaking any laws or regulations?

(I should point out I am an Electrician myself but have little knowledge of domestic work, Im more industrial/marine bias.)

In a court of law regardless of your actual position and qualifications, will need you to show your competence or that you are supervised by someone who is competent. Your link shows a case where the argument was basically a NICEIC approved company used staff that didn't hold the paperwork for the title but could be deemed by grandfather law to be competent, I don't think this supports your case as this is based on a companies position and its employees and not the actual grading level of an individual working on his/her own hence classed as a competent person, if someone dies on your watch and you end up in court then those bits of paper will be the difference between proving your position or serving time - proving your competence with no official diploma's etc is not going to win you any favours with any jury.

 

[Risteard]

could be deemed by grandfather law to be competent

The judgement was that they could not be considered to be "qualified" Electricians without some objective, industry-recognised qualification(s).

 

[snowhead]

if someone dies on your watch and you end up in court then those bits of paper will be the difference between proving your position or serving time - proving your competence with no official diploma's etc is not going to win you any favours with any jury.

If you're in court as a result of a death or serious injury no amount of paper qualifications will save you.
You've made a serious error and will have to pay for it.

If fact the papers could make your position worse as in should have known better.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I looked into this a while back. Here is the relevant thread :

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk.../86154-what-legal-definition-electrician.html

 

[Darkwood]

If you're in court as a result of a death or serious injury no amount of paper qualifications will save you.
You've made a serious error and will have to pay for it.

If fact the papers could make your position worse as in should have known better.

You make a lot of assumptions as to why you would be in court there, you may be acting to show the death was down to the victims own meddling with the electrics and your installation complied and you have the relevant qualifications to boot, it's not always about proving the death wasn't in anyway your fault but can be to address the jury with background - again if you come in and tell then you have no formal qualifications then the case could take a turn to see if poor workmanship played any part.

 

[Pete999]

Ive been having a debate at work and thought Id ask here for some clarification.

The practice - best word I could think of - of being an Electrician or someone who works with Electrics as a job has been around for a long, long time. Obviosuly over the years, the skill training of this practice has changed. So an older person who has worked in the industry for many years gained their training and experience by xyz. A new person to the industry will get their training and experience from xyz.

I refer to xyz as the route that person took to learn about working with electricity such as an apprenticeship, adult learning, college/university etc etc to become an 'Electrician'.

So, from a LEGAL point of view, my question is: What makes an Electrician an Electrician?

There seems to be so many different organisations, regulations, governing bodies etc, I cannot see a clear way to 'officially' be an Electrician.

For example, in the UK you need a DVLA Driving Licence to drive a car on public roads. This has been the case for many years, obviously the testing part of this has changed dramatically over the years but we must all LEGALLY possess a Driving Licence to drive a car on the public roads. If we do not then we are breaking the law and can be prosecuted.

What proof or requirement does someone actually need to say I am an Electrician? Furthermore, what training today is LEGALLY required to gain this title?

Cheers in advance

When He or She has done 6 months probation 5 year Apprenticeship 6 months as an Improver passed all the relevant exams and had a few years working as an Electrician IMO anyway

 

[Martyc]

When you've done a 5 week course and have a neon screwdriver. It's important to learn about ring mains and bulbs before you can understand the more complex stuff, but the guy behind the local b&q counter will tell you all you need to know about upgrading a fuseboard and how to change light fittings by just matching the same coloured wires together.

As far as I know you're classed as a sparky when you've done your apprenticeship and/or technical and nvq level 3 certificates. But that is not time served, that's just minimum qualification reqs to meet the job title.

 

[Pete999]

When you've done a 5 week course and have a neon screwdriver. It's important to learn about ring mains and bulbs before you can understand the more complex stuff, but the guy behind the local b&q counter will tell you all you need to know about upgrading a fuseboard and how to change light fittings by just matching the same coloured wires together.

As far as I know you're classed as a sparky when you've done your apprenticeship and/or technical and nvq level 3 certificates. But that is not time served, that's just minimum qualification reqs to meet the job title.

Ring Mains, bulbs come on your a trainee get the definitions right