Why you should wire to downlights in HR flex

[sjm]

Following on from a post a week or so ago about why not just wire to downlights in T+E I've attached the following photos.



I found these when called to an existing customer to locate a fault with the lights in their flat.
The installation was done 3 years ago, not by me I hasten to add.
What has happened is that the downlights have been covered in insulation by Bob The Builder. Although these particular JCC fireguard fittings do say in the instructions that they can be loosely covered with insulation if required by building regs.
My customer has then placed chipboard on top of the insulation in order to store things in the loft.

So although the electrician may not have known about the insulation plus the chipboard combination which has lead to the burning of the T+E, if he had followed best practice and used HR flex for the connection to the downlights then IMHO this wouldn't have happened.
Also I think he should have put some protection over the downlights as the loft was quite likely to be used for storage, the area of installation is right next to the loft hatch.
Your opinions would be appreciated as I've been asked to write a report for my customer. I have told them that the installation is NOT against the regulations, as such, but is IMO poor practice. I have also told them that their use of chipboard over the top of the insulation has contributed greatly to the problem.

So what do you guys think?
Thanks in advance.
Steve

 

[mogga]

saw a flooring kit in BnQ to allow for the extra depth of insullation Looked similar to computer flooring but it had brackets for joists

 

[ferg]

yes trev.....try getting landlords to have PIRs done everytime they get a new tennant in......they just wont do it because they dont want to spend any cash....so what happens is when eventually (after about 5 tennants)...they finally decide to get an EICR done....you find loads of `extras` that the tennant/s did....or stuff that was either badly installed in the first place and constituted either a fire risk..or risk of shock (maybe both?)....or more recent work such as
Mr insulation coming in with his rockwool.......

Just did an EICR for a landlord who has an HMO 2 years after I rewired the place for him.
asked if anything had been done since, "just the stuff you've done" was the reply.
got some surprising test results for the kitchen. The tiler, unbeknownst to me and the land lord, had 6 months later removed all accessories when doing splashbacks and kindly stuffed up reconnecting them in a big way.
Needless to say this landlord now wants eicrs every year

In reply to the op I find it annoying but forgiveable when diy'ers and bob the builder do things that compromise an installation out of ignorance all I do here is try and educate said parties without annoying them too much.

I can even forgive other sparks making errors as nobody is perfect and anyone who thinks they know everything knows less than they think.

What I find unforgiveable is when bob and diyer think they are bob the builder, plumber and sparky.
I cant tile, am rubbish at plumbing and wouldn't know how to lay a roof if my life depended on it so what makes these guys think that they can do my job?

I've just spent 2 days, different job, rectifying bob the builders atrocious, cable melting, fire inducing and electric shock producing workmanship. And for what.... A chuffing disclaimer that I can only rectify what I can see or shows up on the tests.

Sometimes I genuinely consider walking away from sorting other peoples messes in case I miss something that causes a problem down the line And Me and my reputation gets the blame.

Still nevermind it's only a couple of wires and its worked fine for years :death:

 

[hermetic]

I agree with Malc on this one, I have seen and been out to so many ****poor made and fitted downlighters with melted parts. At the end of the day the pb is there as a 1/2 hout fire delay, until someone fills it with holes and stuffs red hot lights in them. I rarely see fire hoods, and when I do, never on properly.

 

[Midwest]

I agree with sjm, i.e. HR flex. I'm retraining, so no expert. However I seem to recall BS7671 making reference to following the manufactures instructions when installing devices. I've attached a link to one such set of instructions for a fire rated downlighter (hope you can read

Apart from recommending installation by qualified electrician, it also recommends HR/Silcone flex and free air ciculation.

No you can't access the link, :stupid:. It also suggests use of 'loft braces' (probably made by them!) when luminaires are installed in cold loft spaces

 

[truckster]

I'm surprised that anyone would connect pvc cable directly to a downlight but I have seen it quite a lot. Flow plugs and HR cable for me.

 

[kingeri]

The downlighters in my house are so badly fitted that I've disconnected them until I can find the time (and energy) to re-do them. In the kitchen, the sheath on the T&E has been removed around 10cm before entering each light and wrapped in insulation tape. The fittings themselves are cheap and nasty. Many of them are also a few cm away from red-hot central heating pipework. What a mess.

I don't even like downlighters. I might just remove them totally and then deal with the multiple holes left in my ceilings.

 

[SparkyDips]

beats me how anybody can pack this insulation round fittings they know get hot. would these same muppets smother the gas boiler in fibreglass ?

see this all too often!!

 

[Philpot]

Hi all....I'm with Malcolm on down-lighters, they have only been saved temporarily by the LED. They will become the next plasterers money spinner like the artex ceiling. Everyone has to have a flat ceiling now and they will want the down-lighters removed and the holes plastered over when they go out of fashion.

 

[Spudnik]

You aint gonna like this BUT.....

As far as im concerned, we have a responsibility to ensure the installation is left safe, therefore, if there is a chance that insulation will be put above a room with downlights, we should do what we can to make sure that it does not come into contact with them.

Loft braces are a good idea, or make your own out of batten and plasterboard.

I do this a fair bit, especially when there is only the original thin insulation still in place.

 

[sedgy34]

you cant do anything about stupid actions by others when you have left that building

 

[i=p/u]

on a eic can you write customer has been informed about exisiting lighting covere with insul;ation and scorch marks can be seen???

i plan to batten off around my new fittings and cut insulation to size

 

[Spudnik]

you cant do anything about stupid actions by others when you have left that building

Yes you are correct, however, it may be seen that the fitting has not been installed according to the manufacturers instructions, and therefore one could become liable.

on a eic can you write customer has been informed about exisiting lighting covere with insul;ation and scorch marks can be seen???

i plan to batten off around my new fittings and cut insulation to size

Detail as much as possible on your cert and invoice.

 

[jackspratt71]

Agree with Malcolmsanford....halogen down lights are a fire risk in themselves.

 

[electric will]

Deleted. Already answered. Should have read the thread!