Wiring in thatch loft

[yellowvanman]

Just done an EICR for a thatched property, number of issues but 2 which are not so easy to fix:

1) Twin and earth cable run all around loft space, quite haphazardly (no thermal insulation around) - in a few places mice have had a little nibble at the cable. Can see underlying black/red insulation but no copper, so not major at this time.
Options: rewire in rodent proof cable
Enclose cable in conduit/trunking
Protect cable with metal capping

I'll probably be using a combination of all 3 - any other ideas?

2) Twin and earth clipped around the house for outside lights. Since being installed house has been re-thatched and now part of the cable is enclosed/covered by the thatch. Not sure how easy its going to be to get the cable out from under the thatch.
Anyone else dealt with a similar problem?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

no...
but a good reason to get the joistrippers out...

 

[gaz101]

Mi. or. Swa. Or. Galv conduit

or move wiring below ceiling

 

[ElectriCall]

Conduit is good if its accessable to do so, replacing the cables damaged aswell. Thatch's are a pain

 

[Adamsparks]

You can have my girlfriends cat, put that up there, doing both of us a favour

 

[Rockingit]

I just priced/unavailed myself out of a thatched EICR this week for just this reason - had too much bother to be worth it written all over it!! Customer's not called Sue by any chance??!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

You can have my girlfriends cat, put that up there, doing both of us a favour

well...if its doing that `kneading` thing ...that they do.... you know when they want to shag you...perhaps you need to get one of them plug in pheromone thingys...like them advertised on telly....that should keep it occupied for an hour.....

 

[yellowvanman]

Customer's not called Sue by any chance??!!

No !!!!

 

[Guest55]

1. damaged cables in loft - whatever your customer wants to pay for really

2. cables for outside lights - if the ins. res. readings are ok and what you can see is undamaged then i wouldnt do anything , its not as if you can defect code it for just being there.
;-)

 

[Silly Sausage]

I just priced/unavailed myself out of a thatched EICR this week for just this reason - had too much bother to be worth it written all over it!! Customer's not called Sue by any chance??!!

Why would you price yourself out of a job?!
Do the I&T, pocket cash and Adiós Amigo!

Anyway, statistics show that only 5% of Thatch fires are of electrical origin, vast majority are wood burner related.

 

[Knobhead]

MICC for me.

If you change anything talk to the insurance company first.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

1. damaged cables in loft - whatever your customer wants to pay for really

2. cables for outside lights - if the ins. res. readings are ok and what you can see is undamaged then i wouldnt do anything , its not as if you can defect code it for just being there.
;-)

could be an appropriate for external influences though Biff:

Wiring system(s) appropriate for the type and nature of the installation and external​

influences (Section 522)

 

[DPG]

Last thing you want is a burnt thatch Daz

 

[Rockingit]

Why would you price yourself out of a job?!
Do the I&T, pocket cash and Adiós Amigo!

Anyway, statistics show that only 5% of Thatch fires are of electrical origin, vast majority are wood burner related.

Because
1) I know it wouldn't just have stayed at the I&T, there would have been an expectation to do the remedial work as well and
2) I already know the customer; she's the alcoholic old soak sister of another (nice) customer, the place is a tip and I've already been there in the past to do a couple of quick jobs that just went on and on and on...

Plus, I'm quite busy at the moment anyway.

 

[yellowvanman]

2. cables for outside lights - if the ins. res. readings are ok and what you can see is undamaged then i wouldnt do anything , its not as if you can defect code it for just being there.
;-)

Observation was based on a quote from an NICEIC document regarding Electrical Installations in Thatched Buildings:

"cables and wiring systems should NOT be installed immediately under, through or over the thatch"

I appreciate that its probably been like that for a while but if i see it I'm obliged to record it.

 

[Guest55]

Observation was based on a quote from an NICEIC document regarding Electrical Installations in Thatched Buildings:

"cables and wiring systems should NOT be installed immediately under, through or over the thatch"

I appreciate that its probably been like that for a while but if i see it I'm obliged to record it.

probably a wise precaution , however youre not inspecting as per an nic dictat are you ?

or to put it another way , how are you going to record this in a report ?
as an observation ? a non compliance ?

 

[yellowvanman]

or to put it another way , how are you going to record this in a report ?
as an observation ? a non compliance ?

I've put it down as a C2 at the moment. I know there is nothing specific in the regs and there can't be because of the wide range of situations with respect to external influences. But what about 422, precautions where particular risks of fire exists? Also doesn't the thatch act as an insulator?

I'm open to other perspectives into my category of observation.

 

[Guest55]

I've put it down as a C2 at the moment.

well thats a really big call isnt it ?
not disagreeing , but......
the installation as a whole will now fail its inspection due to that C2 even though theres no damage or problems
and the repairs arent going to be that cheap either are they ?
the point im making is theres a whole load of implications arising from that single C2
so you need to be right on the money with your facts before putting pen to paper.

 

[Rockingit]

If you've got to rely on a reference to back up an assertion, rather than knowing straight away whether or not something is a REAL danger, then that's a C3.

Here's the Rockingit rationale:

C1 - It's going to kill someone sooner or later
C2 - It could kill someone sooner or later because......
C3 - It's not that great because the regs say......
OBV - It's not that great because.....
REC - It could be done better by doing.....

 

[Engineer54]

On thatched roof buildings the electrical installation within the roof space really needs to be top notch as far as safety goes, and probably why Tony stated the use of MICC!! Not sure about nowadays but i'm pretty sure the insurance companies require certain standards to be maintained before insuring/reinsuring such heightened fire risk properties....

 

[yellowvanman]

There are a number of other issues that have a higher priority for remedials.

The issue with the T&E in the loft is of primary concern. Usually if there is no fauna damage I make a comment as to what wiring is fitted and mention no visible damage seen, but in this case there is some damage.

 

[yellowvanman]

On thatched roof buildings the electrical installation within the roof space really needs to be top notch as far as safety goes, and probably why Tony stated the use of MICC!! Not sure about nowadays but i'm pretty sure the insurance companies require certain standards to be maintained before insuring/reinsuring such heightened fire risk properties....

Don't know of any other standards that the insurance companies can quote other than BS7671 and rely on competance.

In some cases I've seen more damage under floorboards than in loft spaces, but no one ever mentions that.

As it stands seen many new thatched properties wired totally in T&E, not an issue unless there is an ingress of fauna.

 

[Engineer54]

Electrical installations should be suitable for the environment they are installed in. Somehow i don't think typical T&E wiring cuts the mustard to my mind. Thatched roof properties have, or used to be deemed to have a heightened fire risk by insurance companies. In the old days many of these properties had metal containment in the roof spaces. No idea what happens nowadays....

 

[yellowvanman]

El Thatched roof properties have, or used to be deemed to have a heightened fire risk by insurance companies. In the old days many of these properties had metal containment in the roof spaces. No idea what happens nowadays....

OK, so thatch has a heightened fire risk. Generally an electrical installation that is properly installed does not pose a fire risk, the fire risk actually happens when the electrical installation is potentially damaged, by fauna etc.

If you can guarantee to keep the fauna out then T&E could be suitable, but how do you guarentee keeping the critters out!

The Dorset Model is supposed to give guidance on wiring in Thatch but it only says:

Advice should be sought from an approved electrical contractor regarding the most

appropriate type of wiring system. Effects from rodent damage and straw debris need to

be considered and the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting

have issued guidance to their members.


It is NOT recommended to install recessed lighting into the ceilings below the thatch. Light

fittings within the roof space to be in a bulkhead fitting. External floodlights should not be located under the eaves of the thatch.


I have a copy of the NICEIC document and its a bit woolly, doesn't say you must do this or do that. Just says x or y has proved beneficial etc. or you may want to consider z.

 

[Engineer54]

I have a copy of the NICEIC document and its a bit woolly, doesn't say you must do this or do that. Just says x or y has proved beneficial etc. or you may want to consider z.

What else did you expect from the likes of the NICEIC??

Far too many non electrical organisations/Bodies give this outfit far too much credence than they actually deserve.

 

[yellowvanman]

What else did you expect from the likes of the NICEIC??

Far too many non electrical organisations/Bodies give this outfit far too much credence than they actually deserve.

Can't argue against that!

 

[Fin170]

Last one i put a heat alarm in the thatch space and the lighting points wired in SWA (feeds to switches and luckily only centre lights), MICC would of been nice but ££££££. Took the SWA from the switch to a conduit box that just pokes through the ceiling flush to allow easy changing of light fittings (and not remodelling the ceiling around the box)