Would you finish another person's work

[MrNotaSparky]

Hi all been reading on this forum for a while and you all seem a friendly bunch I am a DIY enthusiast (Hate that) but it is what I am been messing or medaling around with electrics since I was a kid should really have studied it and took up the craft anyhow hi all. I do have a question Is asking an electrician to make good the ends at a DB on a circuit already in place, no points for guessing who installed it!! to commission and certify the said circuits albeit not all of his own work an acceptable thing to do?? Thinking that my tender for this business would be laughed and scoffed at I thought I would ask you guys first and If you were to take on the work would the fact that the bulk of the work was in place (assuming it was up to scratch and followed regs) dramatically decrease your quote?. Dave (NotaSparky)

 

[Taylortwocities]

Well, basically no.
A completed circuit needs to be certified. The certificate says that the electrician has designed, installed and tested the installation to BS7671. Unless the electrician was involved from the start he cannot certify that. He can look at the ends and perform some test, but cannot know that the cabling is in the correct places with respect to location, thermal and other effects.
Further, as this is a new circuit then this has to be notified to the local authority. A registered electrician can only notify his own work, unless he is a what is known as a third party certifier. Only a few electricians hold the permission to do this, it allows certain (not all) registered members of compliance schemes to check domestic electrical work undertaken by others via robust inspection and reporting procedures, and certify its compliance with the Building Regulations in England. Again, the electrician has to be involved from the start, so that he/she can confirm installation compliance.
So basically, no./

You could find an electrician and ask them to test and write a report (EICR) to state that the circuit is or is not satisfactory. But not a BS7671 certificate. Thats why people go to college or other training regimes for 3 years or more.

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Thanks for that Taylortwocities it's as I thought as noted regarding 3 years learning I mean no diss respect my Uncle was a sparky all his life not sure he went college thou.

 

[cliffed]

Agree with the above post,but realistically I wouldn’t have a problem connecting & certifying circuit.
Exactly what is the circuit,that needs a good look @.
Ive been on many jobs where qualifed electricians, have made an awful mess,connections & install,I’ve had to correct all this,& issue a Cert.
If ir others didn’t than no work would be completed.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Thanks for that Taylortwocities it's as I thought as noted regarding 3 years learning I mean no diss respect my Uncle was a sparky all his life not sure he went college thou.

Maybe I misunderstood your post. I thought it was you that has installed this. How does the Uncle fit in?
and what is the reason that you need this work certified (and notified?).
and, what is it that has been done?

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Agree with the above post,but realistically I wouldn’t have a problem connecting & certifying circuit.
Exactly what is the circuit,that needs a good look @.
Ive been on many jobs where qualifed electricians, have made an awful mess,connections & install,I’ve had to correct all this,& issue a Cert.
If ir others didn’t than no work would be completed.

Thanks for that Clifford, it's all external but my DB is so bad anyway an old wylex cartridge fuse board that's been converted with MCB,s before I bought my house, ( not guilty) with a snakes nest of circuits spewing from its rear, that I may as well have a new DB put in while I have a willing Sparky in. One of the circuits is a direct feed for a hot tub in 10mm to an Isolation switch the other circuit feeds six outside sockets on a relatively small ring around a new decking.
[automerge]1586675467[/automerge]

Maybe I misunderstood your post. I thought it was you that has installed this. How does the Uncle fit in?
and what is the reason that you need this work certified (and notified?).
and, what is it that has been done?

No you didn't miss understand my uncle was just a ref to you 3 year training remark I have great respect for any trades person that is good at what they do.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - electrical works are normally regulated by BS7671. Here’s a couple of regulations that concern me when I look at partially installed work that’s never been certified -

Regulation 133.1 - all installed equipment complies with a British Standard

Regulation 134.1 - good workmanship by a skilled or instructed person using proper materials

Unfortunately, without rework it’s unlikely I would be able to verify these had been strictly adhered too, so I’d have difficulty providing an Electrical Installation Certificate and Part P notification for the new circuit, sorry.

 

[James]

Supply’s to outdoor sockets and equipment,

These need carefully consideration to the following.
Earthing arrangements
Mechanical protection including vermin.
Protection against uv radiation
Rcd protection
Ip ratings for protection against water ingress

If you have not used the right cable and fixtures, I hate to say you may have wasted the money and effort spent so far.

If you involve a spark from the beginning, they will be able to assist with specifying the right equipment, guiding you as to where to install it etc.
This will go a long way to complying with 134.1

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Hi - electrical works are normally regulated by BS7671. Here’s a couple of regulations that concern me when I look at partially installed work that’s never been certified -

Regulation 133.1 - all installed equipment complies with a British Standard

Regulation 134.1 - good workmanship by a skilled or instructed person using proper materials

Unfortunately, without rework it’s unlikely I would be able to verify these had been strictly adhered too, so I’d have difficulty providing an Electrical Installation Certificate and Part P notification for the new circuit, sorry.

Hi Wilko thanks for your input it's why I asked my question in the first place
[automerge]1586679005[/automerge]

Supply’s to outdoor sockets and equipment,

These need carefully consideration to the following.
Earthing arrangements
Mechanical protection including vermin.
Protection against uv radiation
Rcd protection
Ip ratings for protection against water ingress

If you have not used the right cable and fixtures, I hate to say you may have wasted the money and effort spent so far.

If you involve a spark from the beginning, they will be able to assist with specifying the right equipment, guiding you as to where to install it etc.
This will go a long way to complying with 134.1

Many thanks James I believe I have followed all regs researched much when I was in any doubt including amongst many you guys here sockets are at IP67 machanical protection is in 20mm conduit combination of solid above deck and flexible below must admit hadn't thought about vermin. Now earthing so as there is no steel conduit or SWA used should I still earth with an earthing pole locally or earth back to DS ok this I'm not sure. And I do appreciate the help guys and yes I know this is not the way going forward I'm not a sparky as my name suggests but neither am I a fool I recently helped a kitchen fitter friend of mine who had taken a course and is qualified as an electrician but openly admitted he is not sure about many practical electrical work.
[automerge]1586679260[/automerge]

Hi - electrical works are normally regulated by BS7671. Here’s a couple of regulations that concern me when I look at partially installed work that’s never been certified -

Regulation 133.1 - all installed equipment complies with a British Standard

Regulation 134.1 - good workmanship by a skilled or instructed person using proper materials

Unfortunately, without rework it’s unlikely I would be able to verify these had been strictly adhered too, so I’d have difficulty providing an Electrical Installation Certificate and Part P notification for the new circuit, sorry.

All work is fully accessible and can be seen ATM it's why I would like to involve a sparky now rather than later or as the case may be not at all?

 

[cliffed]

Agree on all, cable selection,Earthing are essential for safety & protection.
Defo Rcd 30ma protected circuits.

 

[telectrix]

my tuppence worth. @OP if you get a qualified spark to install a new consumer unit, all circuits would be tested and only connected if test and inspection confirmed them to be safe for continued use. the spark would enter " install new consumer unit" in the description of works. all existing circuits, whether original or installed by yourself , he/she would not need to certify for the installation of said circuits. so that is your way forward. get 2 - 3 quotes for a new CU. rough price guide is £350 - £550, dependent on the size and type of CU fitted.

 

[Vortigern]

Agree with @cliffed re the pragmatic side of things. As Third Party Certification qualified I can tell you the process for legitimately doing TPC is strict and rigorous. It requires being in at the beginning of the circuit being designed and installed and dead testing throughout install. They also require me to get a special cert of their own design to fill in, not sure of the legality of that, and send back for their approval afterwards. So TPC is not usually available retrospectively.
What you can do is have an EICR on the installation which may be retrospectively acceptable to BC in your area. However if you are having the CU changed I imagine the whole matter would be subsumed under this process of the box change.
Strictly speaking if you undertake notifiable work such as a new circuit, you MUST inform BC at least 24 hours prior to beginning such work. Failure to do so is a punishable offence. Exact details vary between local authorities but broadly remains the same. However I have not heard of such prosecutions except where there is loss of life or damage to property. Don't forget that such work as you have done can invalidate insurance.

 

[FatAlan]

my tuppence worth. @OP if you get a qualified spark to install a new consumer unit, all circuits would be tested and only connected if test and inspection confirmed them to be safe for continued use. the spark would enter " install new consumer unit" in the description of works. all existing circuits, whether original or installed by yourself , he/she would not need to certify for the installation of said circuits. so that is your way forward. get 2 - 3 quotes for a new CU. rough price guide is £350 - £550, dependent on the size and type of CU fitted.

Agree with Tel as most pragmatic approach. Spark doing new DB install should be able to double check design and install of the hot tub circuit along with tests on rest of the installation required for the new DB.

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Agree with @cliffed re the pragmatic side of things. As Third Party Certification qualified I can tell you the process for legitimately doing TPC is strict and rigorous. It requires being in at the beginning of the circuit being designed and installed and dead testing throughout install. They also require me to get a special cert of their own design to fill in, not sure of the legality of that, and send back for their approval afterwards. So TPC is not usually available retrospectively.
What you can do is have an EICR on the installation which may be retrospectively acceptable to BC in your area. However if you are having the CU changed I imagine the whole matter would be subsumed under this process of the box change.
Strictly speaking if you undertake notifiable work such as a new circuit, you MUST inform BC at least 24 hours prior to beginning such work. Failure to do so is a punishable offence. Exact details vary between local authorities but broadly remains the same. However I have not heard of such prosecutions except where there is loss of life or damage to property. Don't forget that such work as you have done can invalidate insurance.

Thanks for the feedback Vortigern, and a reminder of the choppy waters I'm in but let me pose this question this is a domestic environment which may never come under scrutiny from any official body let alone the law, so as such open to be abused by oh so many DIY enthusiast! and indeed the market place from B+Q to Screwfix and even electrical wholesalers are there to make a buck from all who try! So whether it's permitted or not controlled or otherwise people qualified and not so DO IT.! My house when I bought it had an (EICR) supplied not sure what brand of cornflakes it came from but non the less it had one, also recently had a smart meter installed and apart from noting a cable behind a timber panel made no comment on its condition. So whether it's an existing old hacked about and played with installation or newly added complying with regs installation is it not better it's looked at by a professional and tested with the extent of their equipment and examine what can be seen and subsequently pass as sound or condemned as deadly than to do nothing at all and just to pull out live tails and basically DIY!? I wouldn't of course but many would and do.
[automerge]1586683961[/automerge]

Agree with Tel as most pragmatic approach. Spark doing new DB install should be able to double check design and install of the hot tub circuit along with tests on rest of the installation required for the new DB.

Thanks guys I am hoping to find a sparky like this and happy to do the work and certificate rather than shake his head tut and quote chapter and verse at me and use all this to increase his quote. Many thanks to Telectrix and Fatalan?

 

[FatAlan]

If you’re not sure or have concerns about the state of an existing installation get an EICR done. Bear in mind though that these will vary greatly according to limitations. You could have fantastic test results but uncover a multitude of sins and dangers if you decide to start ripping floor boards etc up. All down to how much money you want to throw at it. Bit like structural surveys. Some not worth the paper they’re written on once you look at the caveats and disclaimers.