Are all EV charge point installers this bad?

[mainline]

I thought that was ok as well, and the pod point guy did give an option that if one of the RCD's could be swapped out for a type A instead of the current type AC then he could have come off that point and I am sure I have seen some youtubers like Artisan do this, probably not best practice.

I reconfigured the board so it had a none RCD spare way as agree 2 rcds in series with no diversification is not great as its anyone's guess which RCD trips. I offered to give the guy a hand to install it when he comes back so they have more time to make it neater...

My main issue at the moment is Pod point don't think they need to fit an SPD which out of principal drives me mad as if I fit a new circuit under amendment 2 I need to fit an SPD as per reg 443.4.1 So why do pod point decide they can ignore that reg..

Because the EV will have some sort of SPD as part of the circuitry ? Just a guess.

 

[suffolkspark]

My main issue at the moment is Pod point don't think they need to fit an SPD which out of principal drives me mad as if I fit a new circuit under amendment 2 I need to fit an SPD as per reg 443.4.1 So why do pod point decide they can ignore that reg..

Well I guess they don't need to work to am2 until September anyway

 

[loz2754]

The only stipulation in the regs is that an EV charge point should be on its own dedicated circuit. There's nothing to indicate it cannot share an RCD.
Though it would not be best practice in my view to share an RCD.

 

[timhoward]

It would be interesting to know if the warranty for the charger mentions surge protection.

 

[catdog1121]

Because the EV will have some sort of SPD as part of the circuitry ? Just a guess.

This is true however it only provides against protection of transient voltages of 1-2kv, this is not enough to fully protect against indirect lightening strikes which is what is required under regulation 443.4.1. Also why would their own documentation recommend a surge protection device at the source of the supply if the surge protection in the device is enough? I mean if it is then fair enough but then tell me that, they are not telling me that, although to be fair the first two answers I had were "We have a lock on the front of the device" and then "We have a CT clamp to stop it over current", I did get through eventually to someone in their technical department and they at no point suggested the surge protection in the device met regulation 443.4.1, only that they follow their own standards and don't fit SPD's.

The actual wording in their installation manual is:

See BS7671: section 443 guidance. The Solo includes Type 3 protection against transient over voltages (+/-2kV Line-Earth and +/-1kV Line-Line as a requirement of EN 61000-6-1). The guidance on risk calculation in section 443.5 in most cases is difficult and it may be prudent that Type 2 protection should be installed at the source of supply, especially if life support equipment or business operations could be affected. Type 1 SPD may also be desired in certain higher risk locations.

To me that makes it seem like the Type 3 SPD does not meet the requirement in section 443.

 

[catdog1121]

Well I guess they don't need to work to am2 until September anyway

This is true although if that was the case then as a new car is worth a fair amount I don't think you could rely on the cost not being worth it, especially now SPD's are so cheap, so a risk assessment would be required... Either way they confirmed they are installing to amendment 2 anyway..

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Welcome to the world of Podpoint
They are loosing tens of million per year and will at some stage fold without EDF funding the show. charger itself basic and cant be linked to solar or battery, very much old tech now and been left behind by likes of Hypervolt and Myenergi. The grants helped them get market share but as Hypervolt with phenomenal growth have shown price isnt the main factor anymore its customer service, installer support and innovation, Hypervolt sell the unit at same price to every installer so no race to bottom there.
WPD will as stated allow for a charger to be fitted to a lopped supply subject to prior notification and fitting a ct clamp to keep max demand <60A. they then come unloop for free.
No reason not to fit an spd in my view as you can get small CUs with DP Type A RCBO and SPD for under £30 if you look around.
In terms of the meter cabinet, I have mixed views, the general consensus around here with WPD is they dont mind as long as you dont cram the cabinet full and are sensible in leaving space around service head and meter etc...SSEN take a similar approach. its always the least favourable option as coming from the exisitng consumer unit or a new board inside is the best option.

Pod Points cheapest approach is plastic unit on wall below the meter cabinet. they never of course pull the fuse!
Pod Point did approach me around 2 months ago just before I got married and had a chat with them, I said I could not work to your standards, he asked me to explain and i told him the state of most of the installs, if doing 3 a day or 12+ a week you have to be cutting corners. Pod Point have set themselves up as the cheapest option and now cant get out of the hole.
I do think at some point there will be a reckoning for them as i said above they have lost millions (wallbox even more but being american the 100+ million loss is acceptable!?) and in the accounts they have a bit saying EDf agree to fund them going forward... EDf are being hit for 100s million euros selling electric below cost in France as they are state owned. at some point the money men will twig and see a big fat minus X million for PodPoint and say stop it. then i reckon a management buyout is on the cards, they will go to commercial only and then sell the chargers but stop domestic installs.
Ironically the commercial side of podpoint are actually quite good, just seems the people doing domestic installs and often sub contactors are cutting corners and the true race to the bottom.
You have smart meter fitters now fitting ev chargers for british gas/hive, and other meter fitting firms doing the same. One guy I met told me he is an ev charger technician, so i asked him what his qualifications are and how do you get into it... I was a meter fitter but they put us on a 1 week course to fit chargers. i then told him what I did and he wasnt as full of it then... I asked him what they do about earthing and things like rcd protection and spds.. he said I dont deal with that, the person in the office works all that out and puts it on the job sheet. they are taught how to fit one type of charger, splitting tails and do it quickly. they are sent to site with a box of materials that somebody in the office prepares. really dumbed it down and not at all qualified. apparently as there is a QS in the office its allowed.

I am far from the cheapest on EV install quotes but get 95% of those I quote for. When I ask the customers they say its the fact I submit the ENA form to WPD/SSEN as soon as i can and sometimes whilst on site for the quote. and also the details explaing why spd, dp type a rcd/rcbo etc is required with a regulation ref. They find it reassuring. Having installed hundreds I have experience now of so many installs and problems you encounter that it cant be taught on a 3 day training course.

 

[catdog1121]

Welcome to the world of Podpoint
They are loosing tens of million per year and will at some stage fold without EDF funding the show. charger itself basic and cant be linked to solar or battery, very much old tech now and been left behind by likes of Hypervolt and Myenergi. The grants helped them get market share but as Hypervolt with phenomenal growth have shown price isnt the main factor anymore its customer service, installer support and innovation, Hypervolt sell the unit at same price to every installer so no race to bottom there.
WPD will as stated allow for a charger to be fitted to a lopped supply subject to prior notification and fitting a ct clamp to keep max demand <60A. they then come unloop for free.
No reason not to fit an spd in my view as you can get small CUs with DP Type A RCBO and SPD for under £30 if you look around.
In terms of the meter cabinet, I have mixed views, the general consensus around here with WPD is they dont mind as long as you dont cram the cabinet full and are sensible in leaving space around service head and meter etc...SSEN take a similar approach. its always the least favourable option as coming from the exisitng consumer unit or a new board inside is the best option.

Pod Points cheapest approach is plastic unit on wall below the meter cabinet. they never of course pull the fuse!
Pod Point did approach me around 2 months ago just before I got married and had a chat with them, I said I could not work to your standards, he asked me to explain and i told him the state of most of the installs, if doing 3 a day or 12+ a week you have to be cutting corners. Pod Point have set themselves up as the cheapest option and now cant get out of the hole.
I do think at some point there will be a reckoning for them as i said above they have lost millions (wallbox even more but being american the 100+ million loss is acceptable!?) and in the accounts they have a bit saying EDf agree to fund them going forward... EDf are being hit for 100s million euros selling electric below cost in France as they are state owned. at some point the money men will twig and see a big fat minus X million for PodPoint and say stop it. then i reckon a management buyout is on the cards, they will go to commercial only and then sell the chargers but stop domestic installs.
Ironically the commercial side of podpoint are actually quite good, just seems the people doing domestic installs and often sub contactors are cutting corners and the true race to the bottom.
You have smart meter fitters now fitting ev chargers for british gas/hive, and other meter fitting firms doing the same. One guy I met told me he is an ev charger technician, so i asked him what his qualifications are and how do you get into it... I was a meter fitter but they put us on a 1 week course to fit chargers. i then told him what I did and he wasnt as full of it then... I asked him what they do about earthing and things like rcd protection and spds.. he said I dont deal with that, the person in the office works all that out and puts it on the job sheet. they are taught how to fit one type of charger, splitting tails and do it quickly. they are sent to site with a box of materials that somebody in the office prepares. really dumbed it down and not at all qualified. apparently as there is a QS in the office its allowed.

I am far from the cheapest on EV install quotes but get 95% of those I quote for. When I ask the customers they say its the fact I submit the ENA form to WPD/SSEN as soon as i can and sometimes whilst on site for the quote. and also the details explaing why spd, dp type a rcd/rcbo etc is required with a regulation ref. They find it reassuring. Having installed hundreds I have experience now of so many installs and problems you encounter that it cant be taught on a 3 day training course.

Thanks, really insightful. The last time I spoke to pod point the guy hung up on me and could not answer why they don't fit SPD's. I have written to the technical email address of the IET with the details to get a written answer from them so I can go back to pod point and confront them and also present it as evidence to the NICEIC as part of my complaint. I feel at this point that most people would not understand and would not question it so will be pushing it all the way...

The installer that turned up was a young lad, only started a few weeks prior and admitted he was still just trying to get his head round it all, hardly fills you with confidence but at least he was honest.. I think so much of the industry like EICR's EV charge points and solar are being done to such a low price point by unqualified persons to a poor standard... We really need to define what an electrician is, what qualifications you need to become one and then only allowing electricians to work on electrics, kind of like gas safe or the american registered electrician system.

 

[mainline]

Thanks, really insightful. The last time I spoke to pod point the guy hung up on me and could not answer why they don't fit SPD's. I have written to the technical email address of the IET with the details to get a written answer from them so I can go back to pod point and confront them and also present it as evidence to the NICEIC as part of my complaint. I feel at this point that most people would not understand and would not question it so will be pushing it all the way...

The installer that turned up was a young lad, only started a few weeks prior and admitted he was still just trying to get his head round it all, hardly fills you with confidence but at least he was honest.. I think so much of the industry like EICR's EV charge points and solar are being done to such a low price point by unqualified persons to a poor standard... We really need to define what an electrician is, what qualifications you need to become one and then only allowing electricians to work on electrics, kind of like gas safe or the american registered electrician system.

I've seen so-called electricians with 40 years experience that haven't really got a clue.

As for “electricians” being the only ones allowed to do electrical work, where would it end ? How about only mechanics allowed to work on your car ?, only builders allowed to build ?.

Given the choice, I would rather have someone do work who is competent rather than qualified.

 

[pirate]

Well said...competence is always preferable to paper qualifications only. However, we do need a proper classification for electricians...the problem is that those who finally draft the rules will get it all wrong, and the cowboys will still carry on.
Assessment is fine, but how many will clean up their act for that and default to "anything goes" when they can? I don't know the answer, obviously.
There are many parallels out there, but electricity is dangerous so less margin for error...