Bubble Bursts on those installing Solar Thermodynamics

[The Launderer]

We briefly looked at this technology and decided that there was no evidence to support claims being made for it. Got this letter from MCS about half an hour ago:

"17th October 2012

Dear Solar Thermal Installer

MCS has recently become aware of a number of products that are being sold into the UK market with Solar Keymark approval specified as Thermodynamic Panels that initially would appear to fit into the scope of MIS3001. In most cases these collectors are typically filled directly with a refrigerant.
Following a significant number of calls into MCS we are aiming to clarify with the manufacturers the technical aspects of this product type and whilst this work is being undertaken we urge installers to consider the following in relation to any such system:
1. Is all of the necessary data present to complete section H of SAP to determine the estimated annual contribution of the system – we have identified some systems where this data is not present
2. Do the collectors and associated heatpump have the required regulatory approvals in relation to its construction and performance – a heatpump certified to EN14511 may fulfil these requirements, MCS 020 may also need to be considered.
3. When undertaking the installation of any product that requires the composition of and / or connection into a Fluorinated Gas transfer pipe, do all of the appropriate operatives hold the necessary qualifications / registrations to undertake this work? Please note that this is a legal requirement.
4. Have you clarified with your certification body that your certification covers the type of work potentially being undertaken, especially in relation to the use of refrigerant gases?
MCS is working with the manufacturers and is seeking to clarify whether and how these systems may fit into the MCS scheme, in the meantime we strongly advise that you carefully consider if any and all of the above criteria, along with any other scheme requirements can be met when fitting these types of system. At present there is no formal acknowledgement that these products will be included within the RHI.
It is essential to be aware that if the systems are found not be compliant with the MCS scheme then the MCS installation certificate may become invalid and the customer and subsequently yourselves would then be disadvantaged. At the moment, we have not yet taken the decision to suspend the registration of these products with the Scheme until we have had further discussion with the manufacturers, however, please note that this may be an action that is taken until the requirements for the Scheme can be specified fully. We will be emailing all installers again as soon as we have concluded our research into these types of products
Thank you,

Kind regards,

 

[MCS Renewables]

As predicted three weeks ago !

 

[balbecdaze]

I have no opinion one way or the other but the letter just seems to suggest that the regulatory bodies aren't up to speed on these products, not that they don't work.

 

[Gavin A]

it's more about which category they should be placed in, which is not helped by the manufacturers insistence that they are solar panels and not heat pumps, despite the plain fact that they actually are heat pumps.

If they'd certified them properly in the first place instead of sweaking them in through the back door via an old solar kitemark listing, there'd not be a problem now.

 

[MCS Renewables]

If they get classed as Heat Pumps and have been fitted on homes with mains gas they will not qualify for any RHI.

They will then have been miss sold.

They may even have been fitted by MCS solar thermal installers who are not MCS heat pump installers.

REAL audits , very serious non conformances, trading standards and then the solicitors trying to get customers monies back.

I am pleased we never got involved as its going to get very very messy !

 

[The Launderer]

If they get classed as Heat Pumps and have been fitted on homes with mains gas they will not qualify for any RHI.

There is no doubt they are heat pumps. How many of the installs have the heat pump part of the install covered by MCS both for the product and the installer. I would hazard a guess at few if any.

So few if any will get RHI regardless of mains gas or otherwise.

 

[jason121]

If they get classed as Heat Pumps and have been fitted on homes with mains gas they will not qualify for any RHI.

They will then have been miss sold.

They may even have been fitted by MCS solar thermal installers who are not MCS heat pump installers.

REAL audits , very serious non conformances, trading standards and then the solicitors trying to get customers monies back.

I am pleased we never got involved as its going to get very very messy !

I thought mains gas only applied to the RHPP not the RHI

 

[The Solar King]

You may ask if this is a heat pump, why was it not registered as such? Might the answer be that it would not qualify under the European definition of producing sufficient renewable energy.

I am one of those who wrote to Gemsere voicing my concerns about the technology. There were claims being made by those promoting it that could not be substantiated. The best I could find out was when ambient temperatures approach zero, the COP reaches one. By my reckoning, if used for space heating in somewhere without mains gas in Scotland, it could be more expensive than oil.

I also have concerns that there was no facility to de-ice/defrost the panel when subzero temperatures were experienced.

This stuff may be OK for Mediterranean climates, but not for Northern Europe.

I am relieved this has been knocked on the head and those making unfounded claims hopefully prevented from misleading consumers.

 

[The Launderer]

You may ask if this is a heat pump, why was it not registered as such? Might the answer be that it would not qualify under the European definition of producing sufficient renewable energy.

I am one of those who wrote to Gemsere voicing my concerns about the technology. There were claims being made by those promoting it that could not be substantiated. The best I could find out was when ambient temperatures approach zero, the COP reaches one. By my reckoning, if used for space heating in somewhere without mains gas in Scotland, it could be more expensive than oil.

I also have concerns that there was no facility to de-ice/defrost the panel when subzero temperatures were experienced.

This stuff may be OK for Mediterranean climates, but not for Northern Europe.

I am relieved this has been knocked on the head and those making unfounded claims hopefully prevented from misleading consumers.

There are many many badly designed Heat Pump Systems (using MCS approved products) costing more to run than oil. Heat Pumps properly installed in the right circumstances will work well. Unless the installer takes the time to ensure Heat pumps are suitable for the property with particular regard to insulation, and heat emitters the pumps have to be run at too high a temperature and the COP rating drops like a stone (and thats on good quality pumps).

I really dread to think what the COP rating will be on this type of equipment. Many of the companies selling this stuff are sales organisations with no regard for their customers interests.

Regrettably, they have been selling like hot cakes. Only last week we were contacted by one of those companies asking for assistance to install because they coudn't cope with the demand - and this is a fairly big Solar PV / Solar Thermal Company so I can only imagine how many systems they have sold (mis-sold)

 

[finchy]

However much red tape there is in this industry it seems MCS do not have a grasp of things. MSC should start employing people who know about these technologies, it's not about writing standards it's about understanding how the technology works and being one step ahead to stop any situations like this from occurring.

The QANGO needs a kick in the backside !!