Do you lock off?

[baldsparkies]

I know you're always supposed to lock off, but as others have said you do your own risk assessment - if everyone in the house knows you're working on the electrics, you've told them you're going to knock the power off for a bit, even put a bit of tape and maybe a note on the MCB, what's the likelihood of someone coming along and turning it back on without you noticing?

When its physically as easy as flicking a switch, very likely.
Treat all around you as if there idiots, because one day, one will be.
Notices and tape over breakers stop nobody.
I take the cables out of the breaker cover back on.
Its never let me down.

 

[Adam W]

When its physically as easy as flicking a switch, very likely.
Treat all around you as if there idiots, because one day, one will be.
Notices and tape over breakers stop nobody.
I take the cables out of the breaker cover back on.
Its never let me down.

It isn't just 'flicking a switch' though, it's resetting an MCB, which most people know turns off if something has gone wrong, is generally not used for functional switching, and is likely to be out of the way in a cupboard, often with a cover over the switches.

In a commercial or industrial environment then yes if the lights are off you can almost guarantee some helpful such and such will come along, make disappointed noises and blindly start trying all the light switches without giving the matter any thought whatsoever, but in someone's house it's easier to tell everyone not to turn anything on for a bit.

As I've already said it depends on the individual situation - if you've got plasterers wanting to use their paddle and chippies wanting to use their jigsaw they probably won't think twice about fiddling around in the CU to get what they want and to hell with everyone else, but if you're the only one in the house, you can hear if the front door opens, and anyone has to go past you to get to the CU, you can be pretty certain the cct isn't going to get re-energised accidentally.

 

[baldsparkies]

As you say its all part and parcel to risk assessment.
I guess its down to how much of a risk your going to take.
All I can say is my tickers almost 62 years old, and its served me well in the industry up to now.
That's my reasoning for isolating the circuit in such a way that its not a 5 second flip the breaker back on scenario.
We all take our choices in this game. :biggrin:

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Changed that for you.

I have (read, had) a pair of sidecutters that would disagree with your original quote. I once let myself be cajoled into using a voltstick mid cable on a job that was not my own. One of the very few times I have neglected to safely isolate, but one of the biggest reminders. Also the first time I ever used a voltstick, and one has not been in my hand since.

They have their place. Twice in one week just before christmas i was working on wood pile mounted streetlights. I had to replace some burnt out components and my fluke voltage tester showed the circuit to be dead, but voltage indicator indicated voltage there.

I followed the overhead supply back to the lines and visually discovered a burnt out neutral giving me no reference point on the fluke.

I also use one to quickly check polarity, or fuses without pulling the bullet and doing a continuity check.

It's all about knowing their uses and limitations.

 

[GMES]

I have said it before on this forum and will say it again, a voltstick is only useful for stirring your brew, Why anyone would feel confidence with one is beyond me.
Also while on the subject of safe isolation, less than 2 weeks ago we tested a couple of offices/ cabins for a regular customer which threw up some remedial work one of the jobs was to replace 25 socket fronts that due to being painted had started causing issues when trying to switch the sockets off on the faceplate.
So in we go saturday morning ( only time we could shut it down ) anyway in the board there are 4 mcb's 3 x 20 for sockets 1 x 6a for lights I switched off all 3 socket mcbs but my socket tester still indicated power so even turned off the lighting with no luck.
The long and short of it was the mcb for my required cicruit had gone faulty so still allowed voltage through. I bet a lot of guys would have not tested the socket if they had all circuits isolated, that's why it's crucial to test, test, test.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I have said it before on this forum and will say it again, a voltstick is only useful for stirring your brew, Why anyone would feel confidence with one is beyond me.
Also while on the subject of safe isolation, less than 2 weeks ago we tested a couple of offices/ cabins for a regular customer which threw up some remedial work one of the jobs was to replace 25 socket fronts that due to being painted had started causing issues when trying to switch the sockets off on the faceplate.
So in we go saturday morning ( only time we could shut it down ) anyway in the board there are 4 mcb's 3 x 20 for sockets 1 x 6a for lights I switched off all 3 socket mcbs but my socket tester still indicated power so even turned off the lighting with no luck.
The long and short of it was the mcb for my required cicruit had gone faulty so still allowed voltage through. I bet a lot of guys would have not tested the socket if they had all circuits isolated, that's why it's crucial to test, test, test.

If you mean a neon tester, I agree. BUT i stand by my 'considered' use of a non contact voltage indicator for the reasons stated in my post.

Voltz (stick). lol.

 

[Plonker 3]

Don't forget safe isolation can also help uncover nasty surprises like this.



Yes that is a shared neutral taken from a socket, as the light switch only had a permanent live at it. The socket was just beneath the switch.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Don't forget safe isolation can also help uncover nasty surprises like this.

View attachment 27686

Yes that is a shared neutral taken from a socket, as the light switch only had a permanent live at it. The socket was just beneath the switch.

Which is why I nearly always take the feed to the switch! LOL :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[TJ Anderson]

Don't forget safe isolation can also help uncover nasty surprises like this.

View attachment 27686

Yes that is a shared neutral taken from a socket, as the light switch only had a permanent live at it. The socket was just beneath the switch.

You shouldn't still be churning out work like this. Take some pride man!

 

[GMES]

If you mean a neon tester, I agree. BUT i stand by my 'considered' use of a non contact voltage indicator for the reasons stated in my post.

Voltz (stick). lol.

Shut up ya baby ---- ha ha

 

[Plonker 3]

You shouldn't still be churning out work like this. Take some pride man!

I will have you know I used that for my DI assessment so it must be OK :rofl:

 

[Guest125]

We had an issue today where we needed to fill out a permit to work on electrical sytems. This was given to us by the PC to do. Then we had to hand it back to the site manager to 'sign off'. My comment was "what competencies do you have to sign this permit off?" "None". Was the answer. Absolute madness.

Off topic a bit I know.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Shut up ya baby ---- ha ha

'baby ----' now, but one day I will grow up. And then it's gonna get ugly! :89:

 

[shanky887614]

we work live, got told a story today that had me in stiches.

an electrician got told they are not allowed to work live on this board, he picks up radio and tells the hospital

"There can be no accidents for the next hours as the power is being turned off" lol, i wish i could have seen the formans face

 

[ferg]

Well I'll answer honestly and say usually for domestic.

I take the dynamic risk assesment approach.

If I'm working in a commercial environment then always.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I put rarely as my honest answer. Take it on a case by case basis and act accordingly. I am happier when I have a 3036 fuse firmly in my pocket rather than simply isolating a MCB I must admit.

My lovely Wiha sidecutters, which were new at the time, got a nice little hole when I mistakenly cut a live cable. They are great for stripping 1.5mm now.

I should probably be more cautious though. Time to dust off the MCB lock I think...

 

[Knobhead]

I can only speak for the industrial side.

All the companies I’ve worked for, no permit or incorrect isolation and you’re in deep ----. This covered more than just electrical, all plant services and dangers were included.

In the electrical department we had a get out. Sections of plant could be handed over for test. You can’t test many things with no power and bits isolated.
You had to have a damn good reason for asking for a “sanction to test”.

The isolation procedure at the first place was 170 pages covering just about anything you could think of.

The foundry wanted to improve their systems and I was lumbered with the job. Quick get out for me, phone the first company. They sent me the full document, the management went in to a state shock when I dropped it on their desks.

Isolation procedures need commitment from everyone involved.


What goes on in the domestic field I don’t know but I’m getting the feeling its very lackadaisical.

 

[shanky887614]

I can only speak for the industrial side.

All the companies I’ve worked for, no permit or incorrect isolation and you’re in deep ----. This covered more than just electrical, all plant services and dangers were included.

In the electrical department we had a get out. Sections of plant could be handed over for test. You can’t test many things with no power and bits isolated.
You had to have a damn good reason for asking for a “sanction to test”.

The isolation procedure at the first place was 170 pages covering just about anything you could think of.

The foundry wanted to improve their systems and I was lumbered with the job. Quick get out for me, phone the first company. They sent me the full document, the management went in to a state shock when I dropped it on their desks.

Isolation procedures need commitment from everyone involved.


What goes on in the domestic field I don’t know but I’m getting the feeling its very lackadaisical.

usually in domestic its, flick it off then a bit of tape over breaker

 

[GMES]

I'm with Tony on this one, it's a different world working in the industrial sector. I have worked on many varied things from huge crushers and tyre shredders to furnaces, foundries and the list goes on.
It doesn't bear thinking about what could go wrong if there wasn't an extremely stringent isolation procedure in place, I have unfortunately witnessed a couple of serious injuries due to lack of safe isolation and I don't want to see another one as long as I live.

 

[tazz]

Most commercial we used 2 sets of padlocks, our own and the main contractors.
Permit to work, and then only when main contractor and electrical contractor are both happy that the circuit(s) have been dead test again, will both padlocks come off and re powered.

 

[shanky887614]

I'm with Tony on this one, it's a different world working in the industrial sector. I have worked on many varied things from huge crushers and tyre shredders to furnaces, foundries and the list goes on.
It doesn't bear thinking about what could go wrong if there wasn't an extremely stringent isolation procedure in place, I have unfortunately witnessed a couple of serious injuries due to lack of safe isolation and I don't want to see another one as long as I live.

i dont think anyone is disputing that, usually in a shutdown procedure its good practise to turn off upstream and test at local isolater before locking off.

This proves two things

1. the legend is correct
2. there is not multiple supplies going ti machine.

unless you are familiar with these heavy machines you shouldn't be working alone on them for safety reasons.

how do you know there isnt a supply going into a different part of the machine that isnt interlocked?

it is not always possible to see the cables entering the machine and depending on what it is that doesn't always help if everything is wired in swa

 

[Guest125]

i dont think anyone is disputing that, usually in a shutdown procedure its good practise to turn off upstream and test at local isolater before locking off.

This proves two things

1. the legend is correct
2. there is not multiple supplies going ti machine.

unless you are familiar with these heavy machines you shouldn't be working alone on them for safety reasons.

how do you know there isnt a supply going into a different part of the machine that isnt interlocked?

it is not always possible to see the cables entering the machine and depending on what it is that doesn't always help if everything is wired in swa

Test before touch. Always. This way if anything has been missed during the locking off procedure then you would be aware. Even if locked off I would still test before touch as I went along.

 

[tazz]

Don`t go using your multimeter on those live rails now UKesrail....

 

[Guest125]

Don`t go using your multimeter on those live rails now UKesrail....

Nope. I am not allowed to use that tool. They are called conductor rails these days. You have reminded me that when a DCCR is isolated ALL engineers working within the area have to witness the test being carried out. We are not allowed to take the testers word for it. It MUST be witnessed. Good practice to use when testing after locking off also.

 

[andyelectric]

In the RN we had a tag out system incorporating electrical, hydraulic, moving machinery and a shiphaz system governing the likes of radiation emissions.

For electrical isolation officially the tagout system was always used. However with Weapon Engineers working mostly in their own compartments an unofficial 'risk based' isolation procedure was used and it was rare to find WE tagouts for short term work(fuses in the pocket was more likely) . Long term isolations were a different matter.

 

[Guest125]

In the RN we had a tag out system incorporating electrical, hydraulic, moving machinery and a shiphaz system governing the likes of radiation emissions.

For electrical isolation officially the tagout system was always used. However with Weapon Engineers working mostly in their own compartments an unofficial 'risk based' isolation procedure was used and it was rare to find WE tagouts for short term work(fuses in the pocket was more likely) . Long term isolations were a different matter.

Real world...

It always makes me smile of risk assessments carried out on war ships.

 

[andyelectric]

Real world...

It always makes me smile of risk assessments carried out on war ships.

Health and Safety used to be given a nod and a wink, but now it is heavily applied as crown immunity(I may have the wrong wording there) giving exemption from prosecution was removed.

In certain areas it definitely still gets ignored, the fact that it will invariably be the MOD and not the individual who gets prosecuted helps this.

Certain things, like 2 man lifts for gunnery rounds, scaffolding for reaching high areas are so impractical on a ship.

 

[Pete999]

Real world...

It always makes me smile of risk assessments carried out on war ships.

Why is that then? there are a lot more risky bits of kit on one of HM Ships than in an electrical installation, don't one of those blowing up do we?

 

[Guest125]

Why is that then? there are a lot more risky bits of kit on one of HM Ships than in an electrical installation, don't one of those blowing up do we?

I said that tongue in cheek - RA for working on electrical work and missiles coming out the other end... lol.

 

[andyelectric]

Why is that then? there are a lot more risky bits of kit on one of HM Ships than in an electrical installation, don't one of those blowing up do we?

You are correct Pete. I'd take an electrical shock over being irradiated by a pointing radar anyday.

The shiphaz procedure I mentioned is extremely robust, and for outside contractors permits to work need to be signed by various personnel. The tagout system when properly used is also a very transparent and robust system.

Prior to health and safety, there were always safe working practices onboard, it's just more formalised now, the main example being written risk assessments for just about every conceivable job onboard.