Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

[BiddeldyBwah]

Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.

 

[DPG]

Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.

Testing and inspection is probably the area that needs the most experience. Nobody would be competent at it simply by passing the exams

 

[Dustydazzler]

Are you talking about T & I other peoples work and signing it off for the sake of BK

Or are you talking about just making a full time living just doing EICRs

I personally would struggle to make a living off the back of just doing EICRs , there are too many fly boys in my area offering cheap ones

I like doing install work and the clients I do work for pay me very well for doing so , as they appreciate clean good workmanship

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Testing and inspection is probably the area that needs the most experience. Nobody would be competent at it simply by passing the exams

So the exam and cert is pointless?

 

[timhoward]

You could specialise in EICRs I guess. But NICEIC won't let you T+I other peoples work, and you pay extra at Napit for the privilege and it's such a bureaucratic pain having them scrutinise the EIC that most don't bother.

So the exam and cert is pointless?

It's not pointless but in my humble opinion passing it doesn't mean a candidate is ready for the real world. Ideally they need a mentor / boss for at least the first year.
It's a rude awakening trying to make sense of a 50 year old unlabelled DIY-ridden domestic mess after the relative order of the test rigs at college!

 

[Julie.]

Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.

I would have no problem with this.

That is if the person gets the full (both parts) of the 2391.

In spite of what people tend to think; the full inspection aspect is not an easy pass, sure those aspects for initial verification are.

I have more if an issue with people who have passed via an apprenticeship etc, in terms of periodic testing because all you learn is how to do it now (ie when you train); it takes a very long time to gain a wide experience sufficient to perform periodic inspections.

However, there is no check whatsoever that someone who may indeed be a very good electrician, great at fault finding etc has any real idea of periodic, and different ways - all too often I see reports "shocking installation etc" when it has merely been done to a previous standard, and doesn't do things the way they were taught.

So in reality
Option 1
Do this via an apprenticeship/other route, and there is no actual check that the individual has the experience of history or experience in this aspect (though some may of course)
Option 2
Irrespective of the route, perform a formal assessment of the individual's knowledge against real-world examples of historical installations. (Where the inexperienced, are very unlikely to pass, irrespective of their route to this assessment).

Formal qualifications in 18th (or current standard tbf), and both parts of 2391 actually test that someone is of the correct standard.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

It's a rude awakening trying to make sense of a 50 year old unlabelled DIY-ridden domestic mess after the relative order of the test rigs at college!

I hear that. Somehow the stuff they show us at college on a 3 x 2.4 piece of ply seems quite simple in comparison to what i do at work..

 

[Julie.]

Testing and inspection is probably the area that needs the most experience. Nobody would be competent at it simply by passing the exams

I would disagree, sure the normal apprenticeship exam type route is at a learning level, but suggesting that the periodic inspection aspect of a 2391 is similar is quite a misunderstanding, this is predominantly an assessment of your existing wide range of experience and knowledge, if you don't have that, you wouldn't pass.

It is completely different for the initial verification aspect, which is similar to a standard learning level as the testing and inspection aspects of AM2.

 

[DPG]

So the exam and cert is pointless?

That is nothing like what I said!!

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

That is nothing like what I said!!

It was a question mate, note the '?' on the end.

Although passing an exam to prove competence and then not being competent after (which is what you said) would say to me that the exam is pretty pointless.

 

[DPG]

It was a question mate, note the '?' on the end.

Although passing an exam to prove competence and then not being competent after (which is what you said) would say to me that the exam is pretty pointless.

If it's just a question then don't quote my previous reply or it makes it look like you are questioning my post.

No I would NOT say the exam is pointless. I would say you need quals and experience. This applies to any subject - not just electrics.

 

[Lister1987]

Chicken and egg. You need experience to understand what the 2391 is and its purpose, but in the same breath you're seen an not competent without it (2391) as you've not 'proven' you're competent.

 

[westward10]

Every year I am asked at our annual assessment are you going to do your 2391, nope, did the 2400 years ago and been testing for 30 odd years. That aside bits of paper don't mean a great deal and the best way to gain competence with EICRs is to shadow someone who does for two or three years on various types and age of installation, it is the best way. It doesn't drop into place once you get a piece of paper.

 

[Julie.]

Every year I am asked at our annual assessment are you going to do your 2391, nope, did the 2400 years ago and been testing for 30 odd years. That aside bits of paper don't mean a great deal and the best way to gain competence with EICRs is to shadow someone who does for two or three years on various types and age of installation, it is the best way. It doesn't drop into place once you get a piece of paper.

Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

I'm probably missing something as we're only just getting to the basics now where i'm learning, but how complicated can it be to simply carry out tests and record the numbers? What am i missing?

 

[Lister1987]

I'm probably missing something as we're only just getting to the basics now where i'm learning, but how complicated can it be to simply carry out tests and record the numbers? What am i missing?

Any idiot can press a button and write down a number, however it takes SKATE to correctly interpret the results and communicate them in a meaningful way

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Any idiot can press a button and write down a number, however it takes SKATE to correctly interpret the results and communicate them in a meaningful way

I guess Tony Hawk would be good at it then.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I'm probably missing something as we're only just getting to the basics now where i'm learning, but how complicated can it be to simply carry out tests and record the numbers? What am i missing?

Testing is all fine if you get perfect results on a faultless install , I could probably teach someone to test a brand new rewire within 1 long day day and show them how to log the results on a test sheet.
But the second they encounter a fault , or a test result that is iffy or get 'funny' readings then what....

It takes months of experience to fully understand stuff and to be able to troubleshoot a job and rectify faults etc

 

[Julie.]

I'm probably missing something as we're only just getting to the basics now where i'm learning, but how complicated can it be to simply carry out tests and record the numbers? What am i missing?

Simple question then, you measure end to end on a ring, the cpc measures 1.2ohm, the line 0.9ohm, and the neutral 0.7ohm.

Are these numbers valid?

It's all in 2.5mm2 and is a typical kitchen in a semi-detached house.

If you copy these numbers into your electrical installation certificate with a measured Ze (utility impedance) of 0.12ohm is this installation safe and suitable for energisation?


And, this is the easy side of the testing and inspection known as "initial verification ", something you should be competent in at the end of your initial training.

The real experience and knowledge is developed later for periodic inspections, but the above is a very basic question which will be something of an almost daily event.

 

[loz2754]

the best way to gain competence with EICRs is to shadow someone who does for two or three years on various types and age of installation, it is the best way. It doesn't drop into place once you get a piece of paper.

I agree with this 100 percent