UK Kitchen grid switch help

[ibra123]

Hello everyone, I'd like to seek your input on a matter. I'm in the process of designing the electrical connections for the following kitchen appliances:

Hob
Oven (below 2kW)
Fridge/Freezer
Dishwasher
Washing machine
Extract Hood

For the hob, I intend to connect it to a cooker connection unit (located below the counter) and then to a 45A cooker unit (above the counter) on a dedicated circuit.

As for the remaining appliances, my plan is to wire them to unswitched 13A sockets (positioned below the counter) and then connect them to a 6-Gang grid switch, which will be part of a 32A ring circuit.

Now, I have concerns about the potential load being too high for a single circuit. Is it possible to establish two separate circuits for the grid switch without the need for an ugly warning notice?

Additionally, I've been pondering whether placing all these appliances on a 32A ring circuit might result in the 13A fuse in the appliance plug blowing first in case of an overcurrent issue. This would require users to remove the appliance and replace the fuse. Any thoughts on this matter?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Most appliances come with a melded on plug top which is recommended stays on as part of the warranty. I try not to cut any plug tops off unless I absolutely have to.
For a multi way grid you can take a couple 20amp radials to the grid to spread the load a bit. just make sure everything is labelled at the board and you can even put some stickers on the back of the grid

 

[ibra123]

Most appliances come with a melded on plug top which is recommended stays on as part of the warranty. I try not to cut any plug tops off unless I absolutely have to.
For a multi way grid you can take a couple 20amp radials to the grid to spread the load a bit. just make sure everything is labelled at the board and you can even put some stickers on the back of the grid

I won't be cutting the plug tops, I will be plugging them to 13A unswitched sockets.

As for the gird switch, BS7671 section 537.1.2 states "Where an installation or an item of equipment or enclosure contains live parts connected to more than one supply, a durable warning notice shall be placed in such a position that any person, before gaining access to live parts, will be warned of the need to isolate those parts from the various supplies unless an interlocking arrangement is provided to isolate all the circuits concerned." This tells me that the warning notice needs to go next to the grid switch.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I guess technically yes

But I put a sticker on the backside of the grid cover plate

 

[DPG]

20A isolator above worktop above each socket - can then have get them engraved with appliance type.

Also saves the congestion of a grid switch.

 

[littlespark]

“Congestion”

That’s a great word to describe what a PITA it is to work in them…. Especially one fitted under a wall unit.

 

[nicebutdim]

Additionally, I've been pondering whether placing all these appliances on a 32A ring circuit might result in the 13A fuse in the appliance plug blowing first in case of an overcurrent issue. This would require users to remove the appliance and replace the fuse. Any thoughts on this matter?

What makes you believe appliance fuses would be affected in these circumstances?

Protective devices at db tripping due to overloaded circuit or cumulative earth leakage would be a greater consideration.

It's not a circuit I'd be happy installing, with the possibility of one appliance fault taking everything else out.

 

[ibra123]

20A isolator above worktop above each socket - can then have get them engraved with appliance type.

Also saves the congestion of a grid switch.

The point is to not have sockets visible above the kitchen worktop.

 

[ibra123]

What makes you believe appliance fuses would be affected in these circumstances?

Protective devices at db tripping due to overloaded circuit or cumulative earth leakage would be a greater consideration.

It's not a circuit I'd be happy installing, with the possibility of one appliance fault taking everything else out.

If I am protecting several appliances that have plugs with 13A fuses and a 32A RCBO ring at the DB, wouldn't the 13A fuse blow first if there was an overload due to one of the appliances?

How would you circuit the above listed appliances?

 

[littlespark]

The point is to not have sockets visible above the kitchen worktop.

You wouldn’t.

The sockets are below the counter. The switches are above. Individual switches rather than a bank of 4 on one plate.

 

[ibra123]

You wouldn’t.

The sockets are below the counter. The switches are above. Individual switches rather than a bank of 4 on one plate.

So you are saying have 4 switches as per below picture (on the right)?

I think a grid switch looks better and takes much less space.

 

[DPG]

So you are saying have 4 switches as per below picture (on the right)?

I think a grid switch looks better and takes much less space.
View attachment 111451

Yes but you wouldn't normally have them in a row like that. You would have one above each socket, so they would be much further apart, and sometimes on different walls.

 

[Dustydazzler]

a 4 gang grid is a neat option especially if you can get the switches with the little writing on saying what does waht

 

[DPG]

a 4 gang grid is a neat option especially if you can get the switches with the little writing on saying what does waht

The trouble is he wants a six gang and with possibly two circuits feeding it.

 

[ibra123]

a 4 gang grid is a neat option especially if you can get the switches with the little writing on saying what does waht

Yes a 6-gang to do oven, fridge, dishwasher, extract hood on a 32A ring, as well as dishwasher on 16A radial (all in the same grid switch)

 

[nicebutdim]

Appliance

If I am protecting several appliances that have plugs with 13A fuses and a 32A RCBO ring at the DB, wouldn't the 13A fuse blow first if there was an overload due to one of the appliances?

How would you circuit the above listed appliances?

The situation you describe applies to an appliance overload regardless of circuit type or rating, but is highly unlikely to occur. Short circuit is more likely and would probably take out circuit protection at board than appliance fuse.

 

[oscar21]

Honestly I don't know why people mess about with grid switches, they must be the hardest thing to fit in a domestic situation, every make I've come across has something stupid about them. The MK ones need a yoke and the switches keep popping out of them, same for other designs, others have screw terminals that are not up to the task of taking two 2.5 cables and most never look entirely straight when you put them on.

We occasionally have to fit them as per a spec and the only one I'll even consider fitting now is a click grid pro one, even the mini grid from click is pants.

So it begs the question as to why people chose them, sockets inside cupboards without any sort of extra isolator anywhere is by far the best bet in my opinion. I remember a Thomas Nagy video where he fitted one and he used a 20A switch marked "HOB" to operate a contactor back near the consumer unit which switched the 6mm to the hob, as if they aren't complicated enough.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I have been doing domestics since the late 1990s and I was under the impression the big ole kitchen grids became popular on new builds because it was cheaper and quicker to fit a single 6 or 9 way grid than to fix a whole load of swi fuse spurs all over the kitchen

that said as above I prefer to fit surface boxes inside units for appliances and keep everything as much as possible out of view

 

[baldelectrician]

I prefer to put a bank of DP switches in a cupboard next to the kitchen (there is usually a tall hall cupboard next to the kitchen)
Other times we put switches in adjacent to the consumer unit- all labelled. A bit more cable, easier to wire and also easier to put different appliances on different circuits.

 

[littlespark]

I was always taught that the isolation switches had to be accessible for emergency’s…. not hidden away in cupboards.

Whether that be on a grid, or all individual.

I believe there’s a Scottish building reg about this that doesn’t exist on the English side??

 

[ibra123]

I was always taught that the isolation switches had to be accessible for emergency’s…. not hidden away in cupboards.

Whether that be on a grid, or all individual.

I believe there’s a Scottish building reg about this that doesn’t exist on the English side??

In my view, this is accurate. Part M of the building regulations focuses on ensuring 'visibility' for individuals with disabilities and specifies that all controls and sockets in a kitchen must be easily reachable. This implies that switches and outlets should be positioned above countertops and outside cabinets. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[DPG]

In my view, this is accurate. Part M of the building regulations focuses on ensuring 'visibility' for individuals with disabilities and specifies that all controls and sockets in a kitchen must be easily reachable. This implies that switches and outlets should be positioned above countertops and outside cabinets. What are your thoughts on this?

Too many people these days are obsessed with not having isolators on show. Leading to people putting them in cupboards, often with stuff piled up against them.

It's a kitchen, not an art gallery. Does it really matter that there is a 20A switch above the worktop?

 

[ibra123]

It's a kitchen, not an art gallery.

Next time an architect/client asks whether we can keep sockets hidden in kitchen cabinets, I will say this :')

 

[Dustydazzler]

I do quite a lot of kitchen re-fits and near all clients demand no switches and sockets on show except for the ones they will actually plug stuff into/ so 99% of the time I do go down the 'put everything in a near by cupboard route. to be fair it also probably saves me about 1/2 day less labour chopping boxes into brick walls.

 

[richy3333]

Building Standards wording. The handbook doesn't define 'accessible':

Electrical fixtures - outlets and controls of electrical fixtures and systems should be positioned at least 350 mm from any internal corner, projecting wall or similar obstruction and, unless the need for a higher location can be demonstrated, not more than 1.2 m above floor level. This would include fixtures such as sockets, switches, fire alarm call points and timer controls or programmers. Within this height range:

• light switches should be positioned at a height of between 900 mm and 1.1 m above floor level

• standard switched or unswitched socket outlets and outlets for other services such as telephone or television should be positioned at least 400 mm above floor level. Above an obstruction, such as a worktop, fixtures should be at least 150 mm above the projecting surface



Where sockets are concealed, such as to the rear of white goods in a kitchen, separate switching should be provided in an accessible position, to allow appliances to be isolated.

 

[pc1966]

Where sockets are concealed, such as to the rear of white goods in a kitchen, separate switching should be provided in an accessible position, to allow appliances to be isolated.

To me in a cupboard is not "accessible" for two reasons:

1. It will get filled with crap, obscuring the switches.
2. It is not obvious to anyone in an emergency who is not familiar with the kitchen (guest, AirBnB tenant, etc). As those switches are rarely used, probably the owner/occupier will be unfamiliar with the exact location or purpose as well.

I would put them above the appliance they switch (if under the work area) or immediately to the side (if tall like a fridge/freezer) as then it is clear what they are likely to do, even if they are not labelled.

 

[oscar21]

Part M doesn't mean that every single socket in the house has to be at 450mm, it means that an adequate number of sockets are accessible for disabled or immobile people. If you put 4 twins in a living room then you would be ok fitting two of them at 450 and the other two at 300mm or whatever it may be. And this only applies to new builds.

In existing premises all you have to make sure of is you don't make the property any worse than it already is, so if all the existing sockets are at 300mm then you can do the same, even in extensions. also I don't agree with sockets inside cupboards being inaccessible, so you have to move a few boxes of cornflakes, whats your view on sockets behind a couch or a bed that weights half a ton?

 

[nicebutdim]

I don't agree with sockets inside cupboards being inaccessible, so you have to move a few boxes of cornflakes, whats your view on sockets behind a couch or a bed that weights half a ton?

Sockets behind a bed or couch weren't intentionally fitted there. I would guess homeowners might prefer those sockets to be beside couches and beds.

There's clearly room for debate about what exactly accessible means, but there's no doubt that an above counter point of isolation would be more readily accessible, should a cheaply constructed appliance spontaneously combust, than one located behind half a hundredweight of crockery. In many cases it would be as easy to pull the appliance out and unplug it, than get at a cupboard mounted isolator, so I guess one might argue in those instances it could be considered inaccessible and self-defeating.

 

[nicebutdim]

To add to the above; we aren't moving isolation from above the worktop for any reason other than the whims of customers. While some people reckon the customer is always right, I'd contend that many are actually dick heads who are just about sensible enough to not eat themselves.

 

[oscar21]

Oh I agree about customers, whoever stated "the customer is always right" must be a loony. Customers are hardly ever right, even a stopped clock is usually correct more often than the customer.

 

[pc1966]

Incidentally what are the rules for disabled access for sockets or switches in a cupboard?

I suspect in many cases placing isolator switches in there might struggle to meet that aspect as well.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Incidentally what are the rules for disabled access for sockets or switches in a cupboard?

I suspect in many cases placing isolator switches in there might struggle to meet that aspect as well.

for all new builds I can imagin putting switches in the back of a cupboard not meet the current regs for diability access/

but for 99% of kitchen wiring i do its older houses and the customer can tell me they don't want any switches on show so my only option is in the cupboard or no switches at all all just use the RCBO for isolation

 

[timhoward]

but for 99% of kitchen wiring i do its older houses and the customer can tell me they don't want any switches on show so my only option is in the cupboard or no switches at all all just use the RCBO for isolation

I get this a lot too. I will agree to single sockets within the cupboards if they reject isolators above the worktop.

I'm actually completely sick of kitchens at the moment.
The current 'design' I'm trying to deliver has plinth, under cabinet, and in cupboard lights, 3 pendants above an island unit (centred below an I beam RSJ!) and 10 downlights. It's also a low ceiling with cupboards nearly touching the ceiling. Very little spare wall space. A further 'minimalist stipulation' means finding room for switches for all the Blackpool illuminations is going to be quite interesting.

The extractor point has been first fixed, completely boarded over, amazingly located again with minimal damage, only for the design to change and now require moving.
The original spec was electric single oven, gas hob, and it's now two double ovens and microwave and induction hob.
The clients are a lovely couple and every time the kitchen people get in touch they get 'sold' more and more silly things. There's now a wine cooler slotted in and they barely touch a drop!

These so called kitchen designers need to stop smoking whatever they smoke and spend a week in the jungle with a wind up torch and a can of spam.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I love and hate kitchen rewires in equal parts. some i make a good money on doing the job with minimal alterations to the original spec and other are a right pain in the arse like you say things move , change and swap constantly which means me going back sometimes 6 or 7 times to re-route cables and try to find solutions to get extra cables in once the plasterer has been in etc

Another reason I charge high and never EVER give a fixed price when it comes to kitchens , its hourly rate or get your builder do the wiring instead of me

 

[ibra123]

We're deviating a bit from the original post's intent. It would be helpful to confirm how one would wire the kitchen appliances using a 6-gang grid switch to inform future project proposals.

In my view, I'd place the washing machine on a separate circuit (radial), and the rest (oven, dishwasher, extractor hood, fridge) on a ring circuit. If the oven exceeds 2kW, I'd allocate a dedicated circuit for it. However, I'm uncertain whether I can have two circuits connected to the grid switch without needing an unsightly warning label on the front of the grid switch.

 

[littlespark]

There are many examples of two or more lighting circuits in the same box without warning labels, so why would a grid switch be any different.

Hopefully any future work is done by a qualified electrician who should test for voltage before disconnecting anything.

 

[Dustydazzler]

There are many examples of two or more lighting circuits in the same box without warning labels, so why would a grid switch be any different.

Hopefully any future work is done by a qualified electrician who should test for voltage before disconnecting anything.

Agree

an half decent electrician when faced with working on a multi way switch , be it light switch or a kitchen grid would check for voltage before working on it

equally I would say at least once a month i come across a socket where the legs of the rings have been jumbled up so you have 2 circuits interconnected and you have to switch off 2 circuits to work on the socket

a label or just a message in sharpie on the back of the grid plate is a nice idea to mention 2 circuits present but the sparks should still test before working on it

 

[littlespark]

A 6 gang grid switch is going to be a double height thing.
Would making it 2 x 3 gangs be better next to each other. ( or a 4 and a 2)
Might look cleaner alongside sockets of same height.

Then you could separate the circuits out??

 

[ibra123]

A 6 gang grid switch is going to be a double height thing.
Would making it 2 x 3 gangs be better next to each other. ( or a 4 and a 2)
Might look cleaner alongside sockets of same height.

Then you could separate the circuits out??

Great idea, thank you mate