Various issues regarding EICR on a MASSIVE industrial installation

[DilemmaFozz]

Afternoon.

Ive just finished testing a very large industrial installation, made up of 5 units, and have come across various problems whilst there, and even more whilst filling in the form on the computer.

I am 2330, 2392, 2391 and 17th update qualified so yes I know what Im talking about and have done lots of testing and continue to do so but I havent tested anywhere this large (or old before)

Each unit contains AT LEAST 30 Distribution boards, plus various other things so I have tested over 150 boards and all necessary circuits (obviously only a sampling basis but it was more than enough!)

If anyone has any advice regarding these issues Id greatly appreciate the help;

1) 1 Unit has ALL of its distribution circuits protected by 3036 Re-wireables, I instantly failed pretty much the whole unit due to the fact the Pfc was 5.15 and obviously the 3036s can only take 4 and they all contain asbestos flash pads too. But am i right to do this? Ive pretty much told the customer he needs the factory rewired, the whole thing is in rewireables with various cotton cables and generally couldnt be arsed to go through all 20 odd 3036 consumer units noting everything and testing everything so i just noted down what I could (there was so little labelling and it was all so old and oily) and tested each boards Ze & Pfc to confirm if an earth was valid....which leads me on to

2) This entire unit has NO Earthing conductors between consumer units and no (at least I cant find any) bonding cables, is it acceptable for trunking to be used as an earth? I mean according to amtech a 100x100 metal trunking has a csa of 135mm which is obviously more than adequate but is the actual metalwork acceptable on its own? Id never dream of installing that if i was wiring the installation, I wouldnt rely on the trunking for anything other than holding my cable.

3) Has anyone used amtech and filled a BS form for the EICR?! The schedules are a F***ING NIGHTMARE! Why do I have to do such a massive load of tickboxes for each board, im going to be seeing those tickboxes in my sleep!!

4) Does heavy oil inside consumer units/lights/sockets etc count as anything negative on the EICR? I mean other than making my life vile and my clothes smell does it have any bad effect on the electrical installation itself? from what i can see everything is working well still enough (except the lowbays which have oil in due to the amount of light output being heavily decreased)

Thanks in advance, and if the remedial works come up and anyone in the Leicester area is after some work there may be some available

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Afternoon.

Ive just finished testing a very large industrial installation, made up of 5 units, and have come across various problems whilst there, and even more whilst filling in the form on the computer.

I am 2330, 2392, 2391 and 17th update qualified so yes I know what Im talking about and have done lots of testing and continue to do so but I havent tested anywhere this large (or old before)

Each unit contains AT LEAST 30 Distribution boards, plus various other things so I have tested over 150 boards and all necessary circuits (obviously only a sampling basis but it was more than enough!)

If anyone has any advice regarding these issues Id greatly appreciate the help;

1) 1 Unit has ALL of its distribution circuits protected by 3036 Re-wireables, I instantly failed pretty much the whole unit due to the fact the Pfc was 5.15 and obviously the 3036s can only take 4 and they all contain asbestos flash pads too. But am i right to do this? Ive pretty much told the customer he needs the factory rewired, the whole thing is in rewireables with various cotton cables and generally couldnt be arsed to go through all 20 odd 3036 consumer units noting everything and testing everything so i just noted down what I could (there was so little labelling and it was all so old and oily) and tested each boards Ze & Pfc to confirm if an earth was valid....which leads me on to
Depends on what overcurrent/fault protection is further upstream,it may be that bs88 or 1361 fuses are covering the PSC on the incomer. 434.5.1

2) This entire unit has NO Earthing conductors between consumer units and no (at least I cant find any) bonding cables, is it acceptable for trunking to be used as an earth? I mean according to amtech a 100x100 metal trunking has a csa of 135mm which is obviously more than adequate but is the actual metalwork acceptable on its own? Id never dream of installing that if i was wiring the installation, I wouldnt rely on the trunking for anything other than holding my cable.
You have to ascertain whether the containment system is adequate to be used as a CPC and whether earthing links and such like are installed.It may not comply with current regs but you have to ascertain whether it complied at the time of the original installation and whether it remains adequate.

3) Has anyone used amtech and filled a BS form for the EICR?! The schedules are a F***ING NIGHTMARE! Why do I have to do such a massive load of tickboxes for each board, im going to be seeing those tickboxes in my sleep!!
We use the NIC software and there is only one set of tick boxes for the entire install,but separate schedules for each DB.....and yes,I lose the will to live if there are more than a few DB's

4) Does heavy oil inside consumer units/lights/sockets etc count as anything negative on the EICR? I mean other than making my life vile and my clothes smell does it have any bad effect on the electrical installation itself? from what i can see everything is working well still enough (except the lowbays which have oil in due to the amount of light output being heavily decreased) Not sure on that one without seeing it myself.

Thanks in advance, and if the remedial works come up and anyone in the Leicester area is after some work there may be some available

......................

 

[oldtimer]

It sounds like a 14th edition install ie trunking conduit and metal fuseboards if this is the case you will not see an earth cable because the installation is Electrically & Mechanically Sound so it matters not a jot if you don't like it the installation complies with the edition it was put in on. Also it sounds to me you have done a lot of Domestic testing opposed to Industrial & Commercial

 

[DilemmaFozz]

It may of "been" electrically sound but due to the heavy rusting and constant alterations it no longer is electrically sound at all and some consumer units no longer have an earth.

Im quite curious to know how you would gather I have mostly done domestic testing as opposed to industrial? I havent done that much domestic actually, quite a mixture of domestic commercial and industrial throughout my first 6 years then did 2 years industrial electrical maintenance in a factory. But Im only 26 so I wasnt even a wink in my dads eye back when 14th edition was in place.

 

[oldtimer]

The reason why I ask is that your post came across as that also as I have said before here even if you have an opinion you as the tester can only go along with what the regs say for example.

A landlord got an EICR on one of his propeties and it was a 3036 board and the guy testing said it was not fit for rental as in his opinion you should have RCD protection and his boss backed him up then sold him a new 17th CU then the landlord asked me to do a job for him and whilst their he said no doubt I will have to get that fuseboard changed for rental where I said well no you are not obliged to replace the board if it passes all the tests but yes it would be good practice to do so.
The same landlord sent a solicitors letter to the company who fialed his property and got a full refund because it was an opinion not a requirement

 

[DilemmaFozz]

Whilst I see your point, I think if you saw the state of this unit (whereas the other 4 in question are very reasonable) you'd be of the same opinion in me. The maintenance electricians here have absolutely hacked this installation to pieces over the years.

 

[Engineer54]

It sounds like a 14th edition install ie trunking conduit and metal fuseboards if this is the case you will not see an earth cable because the installation is Electrically & Mechanically Sound so it matters not a jot if you don't like it the installation complies with the edition it was put in on. Also it sounds to me you have done a lot of Domestic testing opposed to Industrial & Commercial

I don't know about being a 14th ed install or not, but any full metal containment system, still wouldn't need a single separate CPC within that containment system. It'll out perform any circuit CPC.... It does rely on the integrity of the system being maintained when altered or extended though!!

Perhaps the OP can up load some photo's so we can see what he's talking about??

 

[DilemmaFozz]

Yeah I took a boat load of pics so when im back at my work computer Ill upload a few for you to show.

 

[GJD]

Trunking is acceptable as earthing, as stated previously because of the time of install and is technically electrically sound - although that being said, I would make recommendations to bond up the trunking, because if there were to be a break in the connections at any point you would lose entire earthing systems..

As for the 3036 - the Short circuit on those is only 1KA, not 4! so I would definitely recommend removing those as there's a chance they won't operate correctly under fault conditions..

Oil within the boards is definitely not good, any kind of Ingress is bad and needs to be resolved.. is this the case in a lot of the boards or just in certain areas? what about within switches / accessories?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Trunking is acceptable as earthing, as stated previously because of the time of install and is technically electrically sound - although that being said, I would make recommendations to bond up the trunking, because if there were to be a break in the connections at any point you would lose entire earthing systems..

As for the 3036 - the Short circuit on those is only 1KA, not 4! so I would definitely recommend removing those as there's a chance they won't operate correctly under fault conditions..

Oil within the boards is definitely not good, any kind of Ingress is bad and needs to be resolved.. is this the case in a lot of the boards or just in certain areas? what about within switches / accessories?

As I have already stated....434.5.1 needs to be taken into account before assuming any device will not meet the required breaking capacity.

 

[oldtimer]

I hear oil in the boards but what is the source are we talking a film of oil or a cup of oil ?

 

[Outspoken]

All the of the above is irrelevant,

Electricity at Work Act places a duty on the building operator to ensure that it is safe and meets all relevant regulations. You need to determine if the metalwork is providing an adequate and complete path for the safe disconnection of electrical energy in the event of a fault, also you need to show whether the BS3036 fuses will disconnect within the time allotted (.4s or 5s), if they do not then the services must be rewired or updated as necessary because the building state would leave the employer liable under the Health and Safety at Work Act to a severe prosecution in the even of an accident for fire related to the electrical system, and in the event of a death they could be liable now to corporate manslaughter charges.

If the current installation meets to requirements of the edition of the regs it was installed too, and the disconnections times, earth loops readings etc are satisfactory then all you can do is hand over your report and and end it with a comment along the lines of;

"Although the installation meets the requirements of the IEE Requirements for Electrical Installations (insert) Edition which were in force when the installation was originally completed and commissioned it does not meet the current requirements of BS7671:2008:2011. Although the installation is sound and does not present an immediate danger to the persons or the fabric of the building it is a recommendation that consideration be given to a full and complete rewire of electrical services to meet the current requirements of BS7671:2008:2011"

This way you have done your Job and the ball is firmly in the court of the operator of the building.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

All the of the above is irrelevant, !!!! :90:

Electricity at Work Act places a duty on the building operator to ensure that it is safe and meets all relevant regulations. You need to determine if the metalwork is providing an adequate and complete path for the safe disconnection of electrical energy in the event of a fault, Already been covered in posts #2-7-9 also you need to show whether the BS3036 fuses will disconnect within the time allotted (.4s or 5s),OP has not asked about disconnection times if they do not then the services must be rewired or updated as necessary because the building state would leave the employer liable under the Health and Safety at Work Act to a severe prosecution in the even of an accident for fire related to the electrical system, and in the event of a death they could be liable now to corporate manslaughter charges.

If the current installation meets to requirements of the edition of the regs it was installed too, and the disconnections times, earth loops readings etc are satisfactory then all you can do is hand over your report and and end it with a comment along the lines of;

"Although the installation meets the requirements of the IEE Requirements for Electrical Installations (insert) Edition which were in force when the installation was originally completed and commissioned it does not meet the current requirements of BS7671:2008:2011. Although the installation is sound and does not present an immediate danger to the persons or the fabric of the building it is a recommendation that consideration be given to a full and complete rewire of electrical services to meet the current requirements of BS7671:2008:2011"

This way you have done your Job and the ball is firmly in the court of the operator of the building.

Why is all of the above irrelevant?...all you have done is repeat what has already been said with the exception that the OP was asking about breaking capacities...not disconnection times,

 

[Outspoken]

Why is all of the above irrelevant?...all you have done is repeat what has already been said with the exception that the OP was asking about breaking capacities...not disconnection times,

If you think disconnection times are not important then I feel sorry for your clients.

The comments in themselves and their point may not be irrelevant electrically, but as I explained, the Electricity at Work Act has statutory powers that place a severe onus on the users, operators and owners of buildings to ensure all electrical systems in a building are fully compliant with all relevant legislation that is in force, as such compliance with Disconnection times is VITAL to ensure Health and safety at Work Act compliance. You cannot be prosecuted for deviations from BS7671:2008 as long as they do not increase or introduce dangers to users or buildings, failing to comply with Disconnections times is a clear breach and you would be prosecuted...

Does that make it clearer for you?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

If you think disconnection times are not important then I feel sorry for your clients.

The comments in themselves and their point may not be irrelevant electrically, but as I explained, the Electricity at Work Act has statutory powers that place a severe onus on the users, operators and owners of buildings to ensure all electrical systems in a building are fully compliant with all relevant legislation that is in force, as such compliance with Disconnection times is VITAL to ensure Health and safety at Work Act compliance. You cannot be prosecuted for deviations from BS7671:2008 as long as they do not increase or introduce dangers to users or buildings, failing to comply with Disconnections times is a clear breach and you would be prosecuted...

Does that make it clearer for you?

No...at no point in the OP's question is there any mention of disconnection times,that doesnt mean they are not important,but it does mean the OP has no queries regarding disconnection times.....if you are going off on a tangent by not answering the question and dismissing it as irrelevant, you may as well bring the entire scope of an EICR into it,why just pick on disconnection times?
Just because an installation has 3036 fuses doesnt mean it is any less likely to comply with disconnection times than any other installation,nor does it mean the user/owner/responsible person is any more likely to end up facing a judge.

 

[Outspoken]

No...at no point in the OP's question is there any mention of disconnection times,that doesnt mean they are not important,but it does mean the OP has no queries regarding disconnection times.....if you are going off on a tangent and not answering the question you may as well bring the entire scope of an EICR into it,why just pick on disconnection times?

So if you encountered an installation as he has which is all BS3036 and there are clearly Earthing issues, you would not be concerned about Disconnection times...that would be high on my list of concerns along with the functionality of the metalwork to supply an adequate earth path and whether the Earth Loop impedance's for given circuits were adequate..because you can bet if the E/L is up the shoot or there is a break in the metalwork to prevent a complete earth path then the Disconnection times are pointless...

 

[Deleted member 9648]

So if you encountered an installation as he has which is all BS3036 and there are clearly Earthing issues, you would not be concerned about Disconnection times...that would be high on my list of concerns along with the functionality of the metalwork to supply an adequate earth path and whether the Earth Loop impedance's for given circuits were adequate..because you can bet if the E/L is up the shoot or there is a break in the metalwork to prevent a complete earth path then the Disconnection times are pointless...

But the OP will have measured that if he's doing an EICR,and will have verified whether disconnection times are met and coded or not accordingly....and as he hasnt asked any questions on it presumably he understands it and likely he does not need telling everything else is irrelevant. If you consider breaking capacities 'irrelevant' than I wouldnt want your input into an EICR.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

So if you encountered an installation as he has which is all BS3036 and there are clearly Earthing issues, you would not be concerned about Disconnection times...that would be high on my list of concerns along with the functionality of the metalwork to supply an adequate earth path and whether the Earth Loop impedance's for given circuits were adequate..because you can bet if the E/L is up the shoot or there is a break in the metalwork to prevent a complete earth path then the Disconnection times are pointless...

Of course Iwould be concerned about disconnection times....:banghead:.....but that is not what the effin question is about. It is about whether or not a metal containment can be used as a CPC and whether there is concern over the breaking capacity of a 3036 fuses....according to you that is irrelevant.
:banghead::banghead: