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Essex_

With the recent debate on the rise in household electrical fires and what could be the reason for this I thought I would put this thread out there.

For info LFB stats
Number of fires

Alarming stats I think we will all agree.

Please leave this thread free from opinions without backup or evidence. If you have an opinion or some evidence also post your reference so others can access it also.
 
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Sorry Essex, but I agree with E54 post in another thread which had these statistics. Statistics are dangerous and misleading unless they are properly compiled under strict conditions. This is just a list of figures without any data to back it up, so I find it impossible to comment.
 
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happyhippydad said:
Sorry Essex, but I agree with E54 post in another thread which had these statistics. Statistics are dangerous and misleading unless they are properly compiled under strict conditions. This is just a list of figures without any data to back it up, so I find it impossible to comment.
Click to expand...

I was sort of expecting not to get many able to back up their opinions with fact based evidence. That is why I have not put my thought as to why. Truth is I don't know. It is easy to say Electrical Trainee are to blame for everything but I want to see where those guys are getting there info from.
 
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For the above figure to have the slightest chance of any validity the total number of households in existence in each of those years would need to be available.
It may be that the number of households has also dramatically increased and the percentage of fires is constant.

And to note, the increase ties in with the effects of the financial crisis of 2008 kicking in.

Statistics, aren't they wonderful when you need them.
 
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snowhead said:
For the above figure to have the slightest chance of any validity the total number of households in existence in each of those years would need to be available.
It may be that the number of households has also dramatically increased and the percentage of fires is constant.

And to note, the increase ties in with the effects of the financial crisis of 2008 kicking in.

Statistics, aren't they wonderful when you need them.
Click to expand...

You have a point. I will see if I can find the answer.
 
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From the LFB website:

Londoners warned of potential fire hazard lurking under the stairs
30 June 2014

73
New regulations announced today will help tackle the rising number of house fires started by fuse boards but London Fire Brigade warns more needs to be done.
Around five London house fires a week* are caused by fuse boards (consumer units) which is a fivefold rise in just 5 years. The increase is thought to be because many homes have fuse boards with components which are subject to a product recall. Another major source of these fires are wires that not being properly secured when the consumer unit is being installed or worked on.

Moreover, manufacturers have shifted to mainly using moulded plastics for the casings of consumer units, instead of metal or rigid plastics like Bakelite which were used previously and which have much more flame retardance.

Worse still, many fuse boards are located under the stairs so a fire starting in faulty wiring could spread to coats and other household items meaning the fire goes undetected until it’s too late.

LFB have been working with Electrical Safety First and the manufacturers’ association (BEAMA(opens in a new window)) to get a new regulation introduced into the wiring regulations to improve fire safety in the home and to highlight the risk of fire.

It is expected that the new regulation which will come into force in January 2015 will mean that all fuse boards fitted in UK homes will have to be made of fireproof material or be in a special fireproof box. While the Brigade is pleased with this expected change it is still concerned about the badly installed fuse boxes in London’s homes.

LFB along with the Electrical Safety First(opens in a new window) (ESF) are urging people to check their fuse boards for damaged or kinked wires. Home owners and landlords should also check their fuse board brand is not on the ESF’s recall list.
London Fire Brigade Deputy Commissioner Rita Dexter said:

“We are pleased with the new regulations as the Brigade has long argued that new fuse boards in the home should be more robust. Manufacturers will now be obliged to stop using moulded plastics for the casings which are not especially flame retardant.

“However, the problem remains that in many homes across London, poorly wired or faulty fuse boards pose a significant fire hazard that is often out of sight and out of mind.”

Electrical Safety First’s Head of Electrotechnical, Martyn Allen, said:

“We are really pleased to see that our on-going efforts to help improve fire safety in the home are achieving some success.”

London Fire Brigade and the Electrical Safety First have produced tips for checking the safety of your fuse board.

• Check your fuse board regularly for signs of physical damage.

• Check that any visible cables are in good condition and do not show signs of overheating.

• Be careful never to touch exposed or damaged wiring in case it is live.

• If you see scorch marks, damaged wires or signs of overheating, you should get the board inspected by a registered electrician.

• If your fuse board is under the stairs or next to your front door, make sure coats, shoes and other combustible items you store in those areas are placed well away.

• Check the brand of your fuse board is not on the product recall list.
Ends

Notes to editors
The change will form part of the electrical installation regulations (BS7671) which are reviewed every three years under the BSI committee JPEL64.

*LFB fire records where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition.

In 2012/4 253 LFB recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition.

Number of fires
2005/06 - 27
2006/07 - 28
2007/08 - 33
2008/09 - 21
2009/10 54
2010/11 - 73
2011/12 - 71
2012/13 - 220
2013/14 - 253
 
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Just proves you haven't read the thread you have referred to in your initial post there are other stats posted there that you appear to have missed

Have a good look around this board if you need facts that there are a lot of chancers who should not be doing electrical work yes people may be putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 but the rise in the number of fires has to have some correlation with what has changed in the industry in the last 5 - 10 years
 
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UNG said:
Just proves you haven't read the thread you have referred to in your initial post there are other stats posted there that you appear to have missed

Have a good look around this board if you need facts that there are a lot of chancers who should not be doing electrical work yes people may be putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 but the rise in the number of fires has to have some correlation with what has changed in the industry in the last 5 - 10 years
Click to expand...

And I may not disagree with you. My mind is open to input.
 
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[ElectriciansForums.net] Facts pleasehere y'are.
 
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Essex_ said:
From the LFB website:

Londoners warned of potential fire hazard lurking under the stairs
30 June 2014

73
New regulations announced today will help tackle the rising number of house fires started by fuse boards but London Fire Brigade warns more needs to be done.
Around five London house fires a week* are caused by fuse boards (consumer units) which is a fivefold rise in just 5 years. The increase is thought to be because many homes have fuse boards with components which are subject to a product recall. Another major source of these fires are wires that not being properly secured when the consumer unit is being installed or worked on.

Moreover, manufacturers have shifted to mainly using moulded plastics for the casings of consumer units, instead of metal or rigid plastics like Bakelite which were used previously and which have much more flame retardance.

Worse still, many fuse boards are located under the stairs so a fire starting in faulty wiring could spread to coats and other household items meaning the fire goes undetected until it’s too late.

LFB have been working with Electrical Safety First and the manufacturers’ association (BEAMA(opens in a new window)) to get a new regulation introduced into the wiring regulations to improve fire safety in the home and to highlight the risk of fire.

It is expected that the new regulation which will come into force in January 2015 will mean that all fuse boards fitted in UK homes will have to be made of fireproof material or be in a special fireproof box. While the Brigade is pleased with this expected change it is still concerned about the badly installed fuse boxes in London’s homes.

LFB along with the Electrical Safety First(opens in a new window) (ESF) are urging people to check their fuse boards for damaged or kinked wires. Home owners and landlords should also check their fuse board brand is not on the ESF’s recall list.
London Fire Brigade Deputy Commissioner Rita Dexter said:

“We are pleased with the new regulations as the Brigade has long argued that new fuse boards in the home should be more robust. Manufacturers will now be obliged to stop using moulded plastics for the casings which are not especially flame retardant.

“However, the problem remains that in many homes across London, poorly wired or faulty fuse boards pose a significant fire hazard that is often out of sight and out of mind.”

Electrical Safety First’s Head of Electrotechnical, Martyn Allen, said:

“We are really pleased to see that our on-going efforts to help improve fire safety in the home are achieving some success.”

London Fire Brigade and the Electrical Safety First have produced tips for checking the safety of your fuse board.

• Check your fuse board regularly for signs of physical damage.

• Check that any visible cables are in good condition and do not show signs of overheating.

• Be careful never to touch exposed or damaged wiring in case it is live.

• If you see scorch marks, damaged wires or signs of overheating, you should get the board inspected by a registered electrician.

• If your fuse board is under the stairs or next to your front door, make sure coats, shoes and other combustible items you store in those areas are placed well away.

• Check the brand of your fuse board is not on the product recall list.
Ends

Notes to editors
The change will form part of the electrical installation regulations (BS7671) which are reviewed every three years under the BSI committee JPEL64.

*LFB fire records where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition.

In 2012/4 253 LFB recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition.

Number of fires
2005/06 - 27
2006/07 - 28
2007/08 - 33
2008/09 - 21
2009/10 54
2010/11 - 73
2011/12 - 71
2012/13 - 220
2013/14 - 253
Click to expand...

This press release has been posted previously and in my opinion shows a distinct lack understanding of what they have asked for and what they have actually got would have been a lot better if the terminology and facts used were correct

The LFB stats could be misleading as the national stats only make reference to "electrical distribution" as a source of ignition but make no breakdown to actual cause as in CU, DNO equipment or other co located electrical equipment so the LFB stats would need further investigation as to whether they make this analysis or whether they are using misleading infomation
 
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Loads of questions on that LFB table, eg...

The main question being....

Did these moulded plastic CU's actually catch fire or did they merely melt? If they did catch fire and continue burning, then something is very wrong with BS/EN testing...

Was it the CU that actually caught fire or the cable(s) entering the CU that was the source of the fire.

How many of the above figures are attributed to manufacturers recall OCPD's etc?

How many instances in the above figures are attributed to installers error(s) eg, loose connections?

How many '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' general faulty components?

etc, etc, etc....


And i wonder how many of these so called ''electrical fires'' have been attributed as such, because the can't be otherwise categorised, ....now that's been going on for donkey's years.

We also know that the standard/quality of connections to OCPD's and other components within CU/DB's have dropped over the years. Perhaps this would have made a far better starting point than calling plastic based CU's a fire hazard, which in my opinion (and it seems the rest of Europe)are not!!
 
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The stats you posted above prove nothing.
It is what caused the fire that matters. If there isnt any detailed information about it, then the amount of fires, and their cause, cannot be used to justify the implementation of non-combustible boards.
JPEL/64 have not provided any data about it, but have taken advice from the LFB.
They should have ordered a Trading Standards inquiry into why the boards are burning, and find out who is installing these defective boards.

We will now have to fit Non-C boards, but that doesnt mean the fires will stop overnight, it just means they may be contained for a little longer.
Common thinking is that loose terminals are causing fires. Non-C boards will not stop that.
Note that there has been no testing of this at all. It is a theory, so 5 years on, we may find that there are still a lot of fires around the DB area, but it will take longer for the fire to break out.

One example from a friend of mine - called to investigate a fire, put down by the fire brigade as a storage heater over heating and starting a fire.
On inspection, the storage heater was fine, though it was covered in soot, with melted cables, but above it was the cause, a lamp had set fire to the curtains, and dripped the debris onto the storage heater cable, which had eventually melted itself,but left the copper intact, with a still good IR reading, making it look like the storage heater had failed.

So, don't beleive statistics, unless there are some solid figures and data behind them.
 
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UNG said:
This press release has been posted previously and in my opinion shows a distinct lack understanding of what they have asked for and what they have actually got would have been a lot better if the terminology and facts used were correct

The LFB stats could be misleading as the national stats only make reference to "electrical distribution" as a source of ignition but make no breakdown to actual cause as in CU, DNO equipment or other co located electrical equipment so the LFB stats would need further investigation as to whether they make this analysis or whether they are using misleading infomation
Click to expand...

Have you got a source for those alternative stats?
 
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ENG54 - in independent tests, 4 out of 5 plastic CUs did not meet the current BS60439 standard for the glow wire test. Hager were one of these.
Schneider did pass. The other Makers have kept quiet.
This is a Trading Standards matter, but no action seems to be taken against the sellers of the non-conforming manufacturers.
 
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Engineer54 said:
Loads of questions on that LFB table, eg...

The main question being....

Did these moulded plastic CU's actually catch fire or did they merely melt? If they did catch fire and continue burning, then something is very wrong with BS/EN testing...

Was it the CU that actually caught fire or the cable(s) entering the CU that was the source of the fire.

How many of the above figures are attributed to manufacturers recall OCPD's etc?

How many instances in the above figures are attributed to installers error(s) eg, loose connections?

How many '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' general faulty components?

etc, etc, etc....


And i wonder how many of these so called ''electrical fires'' have been attributed as such, because the can't be otherwise categorised, ....now that's been going on for donkey's years.

We also know that the standard/quality of connections to OCPD's and other components within CU/DB's have dropped over the years. Perhaps this would have made a far better starting point than calling plastic based CU's a fire hazard, which in my opinion (and it seems the rest of Europe)are not!!
Click to expand...

Maybe there way of thinking is that no one can really control human error/incompetence etc to prevent these CU fires starting in the first place. So if they bring in this reg to try and control the spread. I don't necessarily agree with that way of thinking but I understand it
 
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snowhead said:
For the above figure to have the slightest chance of any validity the total number of households in existence in each of those years would need to be available.
It may be that the number of households has also dramatically increased and the percentage of fires is constant.

And to note, the increase ties in with the effects of the financial crisis of 2008 kicking in.

Statistics, aren't they wonderful when you need them.
Click to expand...

London Mayors office says there is an 8% net increase in homes from 2001/2011. These figures show a 260% rise over the same period.
 
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alanl said:
ENG54 - in independent tests, 4 out of 5 plastic CUs did not meet the current BS60439 standard for the glow wire test. Hager were one of these.
Schneider did pass. The other Makers have kept quiet.
This is a Trading Standards matter, but no action seems to be taken against the sellers of the non-conforming manufacturers.
Click to expand...

Where is that info from mate? Again very interesting.
 
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Essex_ said:
Have you got a source for those alternative stats?
Click to expand...

UNG said:
So go back and read the thread and stop being lazy because I am not posting it again because you cannot be *****
Click to expand...

At the risk of repeating myself

Clue: Your OP I believe is a cut and paste from another thread on which you already have commented

Essex_ said:
We are on a forum with over 1,000,000 posts. Everything has probably been covered at one time.
Click to expand...

See above I've narrowed it down for you

Essex_ said:
Of that os your attitude then sounds like it may be time for you to fond another forum.
Click to expand...

I could suggest the same to you newbie
 
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UNG said:


At the risk of repeating myself

Clue: Your OP I believe is a cut and paste from another thread on which you already have commented



See above I've narrowed it down for you



I could suggest the same to you newbie
Click to expand...

You win. I am a newbie. You have gone straight to the heart with that one.
 
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