NAPIT Certification Scheme An interesting exchange today with Contactum, IET & NAPIT

D Skelton · May 7, 2015

As title says:

[ElectriciansForums.net] An interesting exchange today with Contactum, IET & NAPIT

Slowhand · May 7, 2015

It might be a good idea to involve Bomb Disposal in this because it looks very much like we're all stood at the edge of a great big minefield.

D Skelton · May 7, 2015

And it continues:

Darkwood · May 7, 2015

There is still great confusion all around here and IET has yet 'to my knowledge' to give a definitive response to the questions posed to them about the confusion of this regulation 421.1.201

Here lies the problem - The consumer unit or similar switchgear has to comply to BS EN 61439-3 with basically is a set of test like an hot touch, self extinguishing etc...

As worded by the regs - 421.1.201

Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 AND SHALL;

(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non combustible material, OR
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with reg 132.12.

NOTE 1: Ferrous metal , e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-conbustible material
NOTE 2: (Just mentions implementation date jan 2016)

Now the problem here is the regulations states it has to comply to both the BS61439-3 and be non combustible if you do not house it as to point (ii) but there's no documented definitive definition of a non-combustaible material but they do give an example so this is not saying it has to be steel.

My next point is everything is combustible given high enough temperatures and the conditions to burn so we need to know the exact requirements to be given a non combustible rating are.... all the manfacturers have to comply to is the BS 61439-3 and that allows them to meet the first part if the regulation but who is going to define the parameters of the word non combustible, yes steel is an example but as this is the only example they give we are stuck with the example as we have no other information to go on.

D Skelton · May 7, 2015

Try BS EN 60695-2-10,11&12 and BS EN 13943 for that definition DW.

It's quite clear I think

telectrix · May 7, 2015

darkwood said:
There is still great confusion all around here and IET has yet 'to my knowledge' to give a definitive response to the questions posed to them about the confusion of this regulation 421.1.201

Here lies the problem - The consumer unit or similar switchgear has to comply to BS EN 61439-3 with basically is a set of test like an hot touch, self extinguishing etc...

As worded by the regs -

Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 AND SHALL;

(i) have their enclosure manufactured fromnon combustible material, OR
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with reg 132.12.

NOTE 1: Ferrous metal , e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-conbustible material
NOTE 2: (Just mentions implementation date jan 2016)

Now the problem here is the regulations states it has to comply to both the BS61439-3 and be non combustible if you do not house it as to point (ii) but there's no documented definitive definition of a non-combustaible material but they do give an example so this is not saying it has to be steel.

My next point is everything is conbustible given high enough temperatures and the conditions to burn so we need to know the exact requirements to be given a non combustible rating are.... all the manfacturers have to comply to is the BS 61439-3 and that allows them to meet the first part if the regulation but who is going to define the parameters of the word non combustible, yes steel is an example but as this is the only example they give we are stuck with the example as we have no other information to go on.

my thoughts exactly. a titanium enclosure would be non-combustible, and so would a ceramic one. it's time the IET pulled their collective fingers out of their ears and came up with suitable materials, instead of just saying that steel is an example.

Darkwood · May 7, 2015

D Skelton said:
Try BS EN 60695-2-10,11&12 and BS EN 13943 for that definition DW.

It's quite clear I think

I myself and the majority of the normal average sparky do not have access to all these regulations to cross reference the clarity of said regulation, my point is the regulation is at best ambigious and confusing and as this applies to domestic only it should be really made clearer within the BS 7671 and in its present format you are left with anything steel or similar to be sure you have met the regulation.

If the IET deem anything complying to BS61439-3 is what part of the requirement is, then why add that its needs also to be non-combustible surely meeting these requirements minimises the dangers of a fire using the enclosure to get a hold and spread .... if the BS61439-3 isn't good enough on its own then why not raise the bar as to the requirements at manufacturing level and leave the BS7671 with a simple regulation that is easy to follow..... I just think this whole situation has been poorly introduced leaving many questions that just are not been answered.

What is the point if you can have a plastic board that complies to BS61439-3 then saying oh yeah and its to be non-combustible.. who says when a plastic board is or isn't non combustible --- I thought that was the whole point of the BS61439-3 standard hence this regulation is just a ball of confusion.

D Skelton · May 7, 2015

You're right, it's a joke

telectrix · May 7, 2015

D Skelton said:
You're right, it's a joke

you should be able to handle it. after all, you had the italians in north africa and they were a joke. lol.

Octopus · May 7, 2015

D Skelton said:
You're right, it's a joke

I think a farce is more accurate.

Its about time the IET got its act together and placed "proof reading" of their regs in the hands of the "plain english society" before the next versions go to print.

We are not all in agreement, the wholesalers don't know either, so god help Joe Public

telectrix · May 7, 2015

just about to start up in production of CUs made entirely from glass.

1. glass is non-combustible.

2. end user will be able to see the poor terminations made by the Electrical Trainee's and avert a fire by calling in a competent electrician to fix it before a fire breaks out.

SORTED.

Darkwood · May 7, 2015

telectrix said:
just about to start up in production of CUs made entirely from glass.

1. glass is non-combustible.

2. end user will be able to see the poor terminations made by the Electrical Trainee's and avert a fire by calling in a competent electrician to fix it before a fire breaks out.

SORTED.

Until you drop it!

netblindpaul · May 7, 2015

D Skelton said:
As title says:

View attachment 29052

Can't read that D!
Too small even on the laptop screen, don't have a desktop machine to make it bigger on at the moment!

telectrix · May 7, 2015

netblindpaul said:
can't read that d!
Too small even on the laptop screen, don't have a desktop machine to make it bigger on at the moment!

open the pic, then click on it and zoom in.

Marvo · May 7, 2015

Try right click on it and open in a new tab then you should be able to click on it again to enlarge.

NAPIT Certification Scheme An interesting exchange today with Contactum, IET & NAPIT

D Skelton

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Slowhand

D Skelton

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Darkwood

D Skelton

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telectrix

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Darkwood

D Skelton

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telectrix

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Octopus

telectrix

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Darkwood

netblindpaul

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telectrix

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Marvo

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