3 X single phase showers

David Rann · Oct 8, 2018

I've been asked to price 3 X 7kw showers. There is a three phase board about 40 meters away. Can anyone see an issue with 40 amp three phase MCB with 10mm four core swa to a sub board then 3 X 32 amp rcbos for each individual shower.

Cheers

westward10 · Oct 8, 2018

If your selected cable is suitable for the 40A triple-pole device then the neutral conductor will be adequate.

marconi · Oct 8, 2018

[ElectriciansForums.net] 3 X single phase showers

marconi · Oct 8, 2018

View attachment 44713

westward10 · Oct 8, 2018

The question is Marconi what will the neutral current be with two 30A loads across two phases but no load in the third phase. People are stating double the line current at 60A, this is not correct.

marconi · Oct 8, 2018

westward10 said:
The question is Marconi what will the neutral current be with two 30A loads across two phases but no load in the third phase. People are stating double the line current at 60A, this is not correct.

The magnitude of In will be 30A for one shower on, 30A for two showers on and 0A for three showers on.

David Rann · Oct 8, 2018

Thanks Marconi! Thanks evreyone

westward10 · Oct 8, 2018

Delete, total miscalculation

davesparks · Oct 8, 2018

Wilko said:
Got it - in the case where the 4 conductors are the same ccc but fully loaded and all the loads are single phase only then N will be flogged surely (?).

No, with each phase loaded equally the neutral current will be zero.

Andy78 · Oct 8, 2018

After a bit of digging I'm thinking this will be appropriate for unbalanced loads of a resistive nature ?

Edit: image of formula won't show

This would give the following
1 shower on - N current = line current
2 showers on - N current = just slightly less than line current, but near enough.

This is turning into a bit of a revision session for me so please correct me if I'm wrong.

davesparks · Oct 8, 2018

spinlondon said:
If, you’ve stopped posting for a bit, I’ll try to explain.
25mm2 is over sized for 100A to allow for imbalances.
The outgoing circuits from the 3 phase board may all be single phase, 3phase or a mixture of both.
The conductors for each outgoing circuit should be sized appropriately.
When the neutral current from phase L1 gets back to the board, it can now use the L2 neutral conductor to flow to the L2 phase, and the neutral current from the L2 phase can use the L3 neutral conductor to flow to the L3 phase, etc.

So once the neutral currents get back to a single point, they can then start to balance themselves out.

In the OP’s situation, there is a very good chance that the 3 showers will not be used at the same time.
However there is a chance that 2 will be used at the same time.
If only 1 or 2 are used, the neutral currents will not be able to balance out.
If all 3 are used at the same time, they will balance out.
As such you need to size the neutral conductor to handle up to 2 lots of current.

Utter nonsense, where on earth did you get this from?

With simplevresistive loads like these showers the neutral current will be at its highest when only one phase is loaded where it will be equal to the loaded phase. any load on one or both of the other two phases will reduce the neutral current.

snowhead · Oct 8, 2018

Can anyone who thinks that the Neutral cable from a 3 phase DB, whether the DB has all 3ph loads or a mixture or all single phase, has any possibility of having to carry more than the load on any 1 phase then please show the rest of us non believers where 4 core S.W.A with a larger neutral cable can be found or identify the reg prohibiting the use of 4 (equal) core SWA to a 3 ph D.B.

westward10 · Oct 8, 2018

Yes we would have triple pole boards with neutral supply conductors ten times the size of the lines.

Wilko · Oct 8, 2018

Hi - I now think 30A for 1, 30A for 2 and 0A for 3. From the vector diagram of the currents, have all 3 running, then turn one off (the dashed line), what is the result? A 30A vector at 60 degrees (the dotted line).

Andy78 · Oct 8, 2018

Thanks to the OP for this thread.
Always good to be reminded of what I've forgotten through not using it and get the bits clicked back into place.

Lucien Nunes · Oct 8, 2018

Crikey, it's a long time since I saw so much gibberish condensed into one thread. Reminds me of a nursery rhyme;
Up and down the single phase
In and out of the neutral
That's the way the current goes
Pop! goes the cable.

The neutral current will never exceed the highest line current provided the loads have either unity power factor (as in this case, with resistive heating in the showers), or a non-unity power factor caused by phase displacement only, similar on all phases. In practice, with a mixed load it is very unlikely that the neutral current will ever reach the circuit rated current.

The neutral current can easily exceed the actual line current with phase-angle controlled loads such as dimmed tungsten lighting. The waveform distortion introduces a third-harmonic component which adds in the neutral rather than cancelling. Also any assymmetry, such as half-wave rectification, can produce additive harmonics. If the harmonic distortion is severe, and can take place when the line currents are at maximum, then the neutral conductor may need to be larger than the lines.