Cut out mess - who is responsible?

JosephandAmber · Mar 23, 2021

House to 4 flat conversion. Ryefield board in the hallway feeding 3 flats. Weird that the third phase is being used as earth - time to locate the cutout and the 4th fuse....

[ElectriciansForums.net] Cut out mess - who is responsible?

So.... We have a three-phase TN-S supply. One phase feeding the basement flat, two phases being taken to the ryefield upstairs to feed the other three flats. Earthing is a mess but we can fix this. The meter tails for the basement are undersized, we can fix this. The ancient cut out on the far right and tails are redundant, we can fix this.

Now, what I am not happy about is the 'floating' SWA which is neither terminated, supported or earthed correctly. Now the age-old question - whose responsibility? I suspect it is the landlords as UKPN will consider this cut out to be the end of their service as opposed to the fuses in the Ryefield board. Is this correct?

cliffed · Mar 23, 2021

Pretty shocking..poor workmanship throughout how can anyone walk away from that.
This industry just gets rougher & rougher .
The cut out fuses look like REC ..there’s no reason any electrician would use them..FI to ascertain who is responsible.

Vortigern · Mar 23, 2021

The run of cable from the cut out to the meter is the DNO responsibility. Can't make head or tail of your pictures apart from the cable size is incorrect. So Isolator for the three phase after the meter (3 ph?) for each flat or what? Then LL supply. Tails from your DB to meter your responsibility.

UNG · Mar 23, 2021

First question would be where are the meters to define the DNO / customer divide as that currently looks like a case for revenue protection to sort out

Other than that for what looks like a newish service head the DNO earthing arrangement looks like it needs some attention

I would be very careful with trying to sort that job out, it has too alarm bells ringing for me that could result in a lot of grief for you

JosephandAmber · Mar 23, 2021

Sorry guys, here is the missing photo. This is the supply to the top three flats via the Ryefield. A bit old but all looks very respectable... until I discovered the cut out feeding this lot. As you can see the meters are located after the clusterfuck. I'm not intending on getting too involved but I would like to advise the owner (a family member) on how best to approach this.

DefyG · Mar 23, 2021

As others have said DNO responsibilty between cutout and meters, although doesnt look like any DNO work ive seen before.

JosephandAmber · Mar 23, 2021

Just spoke to UKPN on the phone. They consider it a 'riser' and therefore not their problem. Why am I not surprised?

snowhead · Mar 23, 2021

The DNOs responsibility stops at the first point of connection into the building.
If the meters are local to the cutout, the tails are the responsibiltiy of the energy supplier.
If the meters are remote, as this case, then it's the Landlord, / property owner or in the case of a larger building the appointed BNO, who is the Landlords agent.

A DNO would not have fitted SWA, it would have been concentric or singles in steel conduit when the DNO were responsible for the meters.

As the cutout fuses don't appear to be sealed I doubt the DNO connected the SWA here.

UNG · Mar 23, 2021

JosephKaz said:
Sorry guys, here is the missing photo. This is the supply to the top three flats via the Ryefield. A bit old but all looks very respectable... until I discovered the cut out feeding this lot. As you can see the meters are located after the clusterfuck. I'm not intending on getting too involved but I would like to advise the owner (a family member) on how best to approach this.

View attachment 83631

Who fitted the label seal to the Ryefield, does it give any indication of whose mess it is

DefyG · Mar 23, 2021

snowhead said:
are the responsibiltiy of the energy supplier.

Yes of course, DNO and Energy Supplier could be 2 different organisations!

Probably be cheaper to arrange yourselves than getting DNO/Energy Supplier involved.

Probably just needs a TPN S/F in the basement and a double check on the earthing situation.

JosephandAmber · Mar 23, 2021

snowhead said:
The DNOs responsibility stops at the first point of connection into the building.
If the meters are local to the cutout, the tails are the responsibiltiy of the energy supplier.
If the meters are remote, as this case, then it's the Landlord, / property owner or in the case of a larger building the appointed BNO, who is the Landlords agent.

A DNO would not have fitted SWA, it would have been concentric or singles in steel conduit, although they probably would have connected it to the Cutout if presented with the tail ends.
As the cutout fuses don't appear to be sealed I doubt the DNO connected the SWA here.

The fuses are sealed along the top. The ryefield board had a DNO seal (see photo).

Given the cut out needs to supply meter tails for the basement flat but also the 'riser' for the Ryefield how best would you terminate? Options I see are:

1) Have UKPN move the basement cutout into the communal hallway to a new 5-way Ryefield. Run a new sub-main back down to supply the basement.
2) Keep cutout as is, run new SWA and terminate into a galv box (or TPN S/F) above cut out.
3) Keep cutout as is, use galv trunking and run everything in singles. (Don't really see the advantage over SWA here?)

Lucien Nunes · Mar 23, 2021

Can't see much point having the DNO relocate their stuff. Option 2, redo the SWA properly seems most sensible. But the real reason I'm replying is that if you get to the point of removing the old cast-iron Sanders cutout, I would be keen to save it for the museum and refund your costs to send it over. We haven't got anything of that ilk from Sanders yet and I am not sure I've ever seen that pattern.

Vortigern · Mar 23, 2021

I would then say to the DNO, as they are refusing to regularise their own part of the installation, Ok, so it is ok for me to break the seals on the main cut-out fuses and Ryfield box and replace your DNO cable between them then? Can I have that in writing please?

Cut out mess - who is responsible?

JosephandAmber

cliffed

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Vortigern

UNG

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JosephandAmber

DefyG

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JosephandAmber

snowhead

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UNG

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DefyG

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JosephandAmber

Lucien Nunes

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Vortigern

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