A quick European wiring puzzle with a simple answer

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

Following from a recent thread mentioning some continental electrical practice, I made this mock-up of something you might see in an older installation in a certain West-European country. It's not standard practice now but is widespread enough to have a specific name. What is the name of this specific circuit arrangement in the local language? Not sure if we have any sparks from the country in question on here but please let the Brits have a try!

[ElectriciansForums.net] A quick European wiring puzzle with a simple answer

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

Oude stoppenkast. Wat zijn de stroomwaarden van de twee zekeringen?

timhoward · Dec 17, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
@tinhoward you win this round, 16A Perilex, often used as a cooker plug in domestic 3-phase installations that are common in mainland Europe. 3x16A = equivalent to 48A single phase so plenty of juice for any kind of cooker. Increasingly though, where you have a single-phase oven, and a hob that can use 2 phases out of 3, Perilex gets used on single-phase installations with two line pins and two neutral pins. A bit naughty, I've seen it done with either L1 or L3 as the second neutral, usually marked on the front in sharpie.

The 25A version is not as widely used, the two are distinguished by the orientation of the flat, central earth pin, horizontal = 16A, vertical = 25A.

I like them too although the contacts on some of the basic sockets are not as well engineered as many Schuko sockets of the same rating.

I've never quite understood the size and 'b*ggeration factor' between a UK 13 amp socket and a UK 16 amp socket.
This seems to confirm that we we have gone way over the top....!

DPG · Dec 17, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
Oude stoppenkast. Wat zijn de stroomwaarden van de twee zekeringen?

View attachment 93100

I'm guessing the colour of the centre pin is a clue?

timhoward · Dec 17, 2021

We are now in Holland?! ..
Little aside -in my old IT job I learned OK and Cancel in most languages fairly rapidly as I was doing support for people all over Europe.
Actually visiting Holland didn't help. The shops have Uit over the exit. So I assumed Uitwerken was cancel. Ooops. I was told it means Out-working (OK!)

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

Ja, aber diese Art von Sicherung hat ihren Ursprung in Deutschland

Mikegh · Dec 17, 2021

timhoward said:
We are now in Holland?! ..
Little aside -in my old IT job I learned OK and Cancel in most languages fairly rapidly as I was doing support for people all over Europe.
Actually visiting Holland didn't help. The shops have Uit over the exit. So I assumed Uitwerken was cancel. Ooops. I was told it means Out-working (OK!)

I used to be ringing california for tech support when I was in the US

Staff would be laughing at me trying to follow the chinese accents

timhoward · Dec 17, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
Ja, aber diese Art von Sicherung hat ihren Ursprung in Deutschland

I have an unfair advantage with this one - I had to get highly creative to get an outside broadcast unit powered enough to function off something similar once. But that's another story for another day.
I seem to recall "Zekering stoppen" was an important phrase.

Vortigern · Dec 17, 2021

5a and 30 a is my guess based on the colours of the centre pin in the picture of the old stop box

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

Colours are different to the UK ones though, and there's a story behind how they were originally chosen by Siemens. The coloured disc in the middle of the endcap is an indicator - it pops out when the fuse blows so you can see at a glance through the window in the screw cap.

Vortigern · Dec 17, 2021

Ok second try, 4a and 25a

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

Nope. There are more different meanings for different colours of fuse than you can shake an MCB at:

A red fuse could mean:
BS1362 3A
Blade car fuse 10A
Continental car fuse 16A
US plug type panel fuse 20A
BS1361 30A
etc etc

Your clue here is: Briefmarken.

LastManOnline · Dec 17, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
Oude stoppenkast. Wat zijn de stroomwaarden van de twee zekeringen?

View attachment 93100

Het is een tijde geleden sinds Ik gewerkt in Nederland heb maar Ik denkt the rode is 10 ampere en the grijse is 16 ampere?

Vortigern · Dec 17, 2021

ok so the original diazed fuse was coloured by the stamp colours as it was so say easier to remember. The red stamp was 20 so 20a for the red one. Still working on the white.

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

@LastManOnline got there: 10A red, 16A grey. Bonus to @Vortigern for identifying the type of fuse.
DIAZED:: Diametrisch abgestufter zweiteiliger Edison-Schmelzstöpsel.

Two-part Edison-screw fuse insert differentiated by diameter. I.e. the diameter of the 'nose' contact depends on the rating. Each fuse holder has an interchangeable gauge ring or screw base of matching colour that will accept any fuse up to its size but not a larger one.

A very good design of fuse with high performance from the very beginning, now over a century old. This is the DII range up to 25A, the DIII range with a larger body covers the higher ratings. Technically superseded by the Neozed D01 and D02 designed on similar lines in a more compact format, but both ranges are still to be found in widespread use throughout Europe.

The Dutch fuse box has, like all of its era, a DP isolator for each outgoing way. A nice feature that no-one in the UK thought to implement. Also interchangeable cable entry plates (blank / large hole / small hole / coupling to next box) that just slot in.

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

And the complete box, kindly sent to me along with various other dutch wiring accessories, by Oof Oud of the plug and socket museum.

LastManOnline · Dec 17, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
@LastManOnline got there: 10A red, 16A grey. Bonus to @Vortigern for identifying the type of fuse.
DIAZED:: Diametrisch abgestufter zweiteiliger Edison-Schmelzstöpsel.

Two-part Edison-screw fuse insert differentiated by diameter. I.e. the diameter of the 'nose' contact depends on the rating. Each fuse holder has an interchangeable gauge ring or screw base of matching colour that will accept any fuse up to its size but not a larger one.

A very good design of fuse with high performance from the very beginning, now over a century old and still in use throughout Europe. This is the DII range up to 25A, the DIII range with a larger body covers the higher ratings. Technically superseded by the Neozed, D02 and D03 but both are still to be found.

The Dutch fuse box has, like all of its era, a DP isolator for each outgoing way. A nice feature that no-one in the UK thought to implement. Also interchangeable cable entry plates (blank / large hole / small hole / coupling to next box) that just slot in.

View attachment 93132 View attachment 93133 View attachment 93134 View attachment 93135 View attachment 93136

There was also available in Holland a resettable fuse which was a real game changer in the pre-mcb days. Saved invaluable time and inconvenience during faultfinding. Its probably the kind of item you have hundreds of. Just in case you don, t, I kept one as a souvenir and you would be very welcome to it if would serve some purpose in your collection.

Lucien Nunes · Dec 17, 2021

Oo yes please, we don't have any of those. A few modern Chinese screw-in MCBs only here. At some point I would like to make up displays of different wiring systems of various countries in addition to the different eras of UK, for comparison.

LastManOnline · Dec 17, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
Oo yes please, we don't have any of those. A few modern Chinese screw-in MCBs only here. At some point I would like to make up displays of different wiring systems of various countries in addition to the different eras of UK, for comparison.

No problem. Will do a little digging. It, s there somewhere

Vortigern · Dec 17, 2021

Thanks for the tests Lucien. Entertaining and informative as well. Got us thinking at least, makes a change in my case.

LastManOnline · Dec 19, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
Oo yes please, we don't have any of those. A few modern Chinese screw-in MCBs only here. At some point I would like to make up displays of different wiring systems of various countries in addition to the different eras of UK, for comparison.

This was what I was referring to to??

Lucien Nunes · Dec 19, 2021

Interesting, a Polish one. I think it uses the normal Stotz mechanism, some POLAM examples have the Stotz-Kontakt logo on as well, this one doesn't though. FWIW the old Wylex pushbutton plug-in MCBs, from before the lever type, also used the same mechanism under licence.

I have a few nasty modern Chinese clones here, one of which rather alarmingly jammed in the on-position the first time I tried to demonstrate it. Not what you want in an MCB!

LastManOnline · Dec 19, 2021

Lucien Nunes said:
Interesting, a Polish one.

Yes. I googled it and was surprised to see they are still been made. The one in the picture dates from early eighties but possibly earlier. Anyway if its of any use let me know. You are more than welcome to it.
As an aside, you mentioned you would like to get examples of various wiring systems in UK abroad. I wondered if you were aware of the Dutch, rather novel solution to providing an earth fault return path after their metallic services were replaced with plastic?

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