Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work? | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums
Click here to remove these ads

Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

Post new thread

Discuss Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

BiddeldyBwah

BiddeldyBwah

Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
110
Reaction score
63
Location
North
Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
BiddeldyBwah said:
Needing several years of shadowing someone after being qualified and certified seems a bit much to be honest.
Click to expand...
It is for normal installation work (issuing of installation certificates etc), but there is no way you can learn everything needed to carry out periodic inspections without it.

My only issue is that just because you do have years of experience and being mentored, does not mean you are actually up to standard.

We have all seen many drivers who passed their driving test successfully years ago, and have considerable driving experience since -- who are absolutely NOT competent on the road!

I believe that you need the experience and then are tested to show they are at the correct standard in order to do periodics.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Julie. said:
It is for normal installation work (issuing of installation certificates etc), but there is no way you can learn everything needed to carry out periodic inspections without it.

My only issue is that just because you do have years of experience and being mentored, does not mean you are actually up to standard.

We have all seen many drivers who passed their driving test successfully years ago, and have considerable driving experience since -- who are absolutely NOT competent on the road!

I believe that you need the experience and then are tested to show they are at the correct standard in order to do periodics.
Click to expand...
I agree I have had many people shadowing me and some just don't make the grade.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Dustydazzler said:
Coding is extremely ambiguous , you could shadow 40 different sparks and all 40 would code things differently
Click to expand...
I never really saw the need for EICR,s. I regard them as the softest money I will ever make. I also regard them as poor value for the homeowner.The average homeowner does not abuse his house. If its wired/rewired by a professional it is basically maintenance free electrically and a simple visual check combined with the testing of his safety devices every 10 years or so would in my view be more than sufficient. It's different with rented accomodation obviously.
. I can appreciate though that in the UK there is a greater need for electrical checks due to the prevalence of DIY electrical work
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
BiddeldyBwah said:
Needing several years of shadowing someone after being qualified and certified seems a bit much to be honest.
Click to expand...
I comepletely agree. We spend several years learning how to do things correctly. Why would we need several years more to recoqnize when things have been done incorrectly.?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
LastManOnline said:
...
. I can appreciate though that in the UK there is a greater need for electrical checks due to the prevalence of DIY electrical work
Click to expand...
This really, I think we have all come across appalling work , Ireland may be different, but most of the EU (and other areas to which the regs apply) allow diy stuff, although in my experience very poor/dangerous work isn't exclusive to diy by any margin!!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
LastManOnline said:
It's not. As you say all countries allow for a measure of DIY work. But it's usually of the plugtop and ceiling rose variety.Whereas, as the threads on this forum demonstrate on a daily basis, in the UK the average diyer can virtually do as he pleases
Click to expand...
Same in Germany, perhaps the average German is better educated than the average UK diyer, however you can find just as many videos and diy examples throughout the area covered by these regulations.

It perhaps looks worse on this site as so many work in the uk and post their findings
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
LastManOnline said:
I comepletely agree. We spend several years learning how to do things correctly. Why would we need several years more to recoqnize when things have been done incorrectly.?
Click to expand...
Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
BiddeldyBwah said:
Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.
Click to expand...
But there is a difference between doing the work to current standards (and testing); and inspecting installations which cover work complying with various standards over the last 30-40 years.


For example, it is one thing to be a fully qualified car mechanic, but only a few obtain sufficient experience and compliance with standards to perform mots - even fewer that can inspect hgv, psv etc.

These are the ones who after learning just like every other mechanic, gain experience and then get assessed to ensure a consistent standard for mots

(Now, I know we can say they are not completely consistent, but they are more so than the current situation with EICRs.)

Imagine a rough mechanic who has only worked on cars, should they automatically be allowed to certify a hgv as safe with nothing more than their initial mechanic training and "experiance"?

That's basically the equivalent to some electrician who completed their training, and now can EICR anything out there...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Julie. said:
It perhaps looks worse on this site as so many work in the uk and post their findings
Click to expand...
Indeed. To some extent this site reflects the best & worst of UK electrics as it has quite a few very good electricians on it that clearly have pride in their work and often are not afraid to ask questions when they don't know, which is the only way to learn (well, it is cheaper than blowing stuff up several times...).

So when folks come across really bad stuff it gets posted, and we can criticise, laugh, or occasionally think "but for the grace of god..."

But not all of the crap work is DIY, some if it is by p-poor sparks that are the equivalent of dodgy garages for car repairs, etc.

Without any examination of other country's electrical installations on equal terms it is hard to say just how much better or worse they are compared to the UK in terms of dodgy installation.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Julie. said:
Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent
Click to expand...

Julie. said:
Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent
Click to expand...
My cat is named Bob. He's a bit clueless, therefore I reckon Alice is best choice.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
BiddeldyBwah said:
In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo.
Click to expand...

There's a grain of truth in that, but it's not a great premise for doing inspection and testing. I wouldn't hire you or anyone with that attitude. If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation. The same as when I use a measuring instrument I want to know a voltage or resistance to reasonable accuracy with excellent reliability, I don't want a half-a**ed answer that might or might not be the voltage. I don't want an inspector who might or might not know what to look for.

Any fool can be taught what length nails to use to fix a socket on the wall, but it takes ninja detective skills to know whether the nails are the right length just by looking at the heads. And you can't learn that from a book. Here's a real example you won't learn on any course but you might learn from experience. Look at the pic of the socket outlet. Seeing this should put you on increased alert for a specific potential problem with the wiring. What is it, and why is this particular socket a warning sign?
[ElectriciansForums.net] Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Lucien Nunes said:
If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation.
Click to expand...
Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

I'm not sure what you're saying but it appears to be 'don't hire those without vast experience' which is one of the great problems in this industry.

At the end of the day you only ever really learn by doing so imo if you have your 2391 you're good to go. That's not good enough for those who are anaI about fine and often unnecessary details (like wanting to know exactly what's wrong with something instead of simply wanting it fixed) but you're a small breed and in the real world someone who has passed the courses is going to know how to suss out most of what they come across.

As i've said, those who come on forums to discuss work are often obsessed with 'doing it right' or being seen to be doing it 'better' than others. Rightly or wrongly that leads to unrealistic standards like needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.

As for the pic i would hazard a guess that the screw head is blackened. Apart from that, and being too close to the floor, it just looks a bit old and manky.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Is the socket from LN open to anyone, or just trying to get a point across?

I’ve not read the past posts, but I’m thinking there is some confusion between testing, and periodic inspection…. Which really is two separate things.

I was always pressed at the 18th about knowledge, experience AND understanding.

You needed all 3
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
pc1966 said:
Indeed. To some extent this site reflects the best & worst of UK electrics.
Click to expand...
Good point. My view (in my limited experience on the site) is that the "best" is really good. And by that I mean better than anywhere else I, ve been involved in, in the industry . On the other hand, the "worst" is as poor, or poorer than I have seen elsewhere.
I wonder if the more liberal, less regulated manner of the UK electrical industry is responsible for that (just my opinion).
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
BiddeldyBwah said:
Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

...... needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.
...
Click to expand...
Which is why the correct standards shouldn't be controlled by the customer base or the industry itself.

For normal installations (and fault finding), I do think 18th + 2391 part 1 + apprenticeship experience is sufficient.

However for EICRs , this should be controlled and subject to years of experience; with 2391 part 2, only those with considerable experience tend to be successful.

Any car driver can drive and perhaps teach someone else to drive (diyer instead of getting a professional in) but ultimately the inspector aka driving examiner is selected and trained for this purpose by a proper authority, not someone who has been driving for years, so "should be able to".
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Is the socket from LN open to anyone,
Click to expand...

Yes crack on, the OP doesn't seem very interested in locating fire hazards, more in guessing and waffling:

As for the pic i would hazard a guess..... it just looks a bit old and manky.
Click to expand...

And trolling, although it is an interesting discussion that's worth having and he does raise some relevant points.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Lucien Nunes said:
There's a grain of truth in that, but it's not a great premise for doing inspection and testing. I wouldn't hire you or anyone with that attitude. If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation. The same as when I use a measuring instrument I want to know a voltage or resistance to reasonable accuracy with excellent reliability, I don't want a half-a**ed answer that might or might not be the voltage. I don't want an inspector who might or might not know what to look for.

Any fool can be taught what length nails to use to fix a socket on the wall, but it takes ninja detective skills to know whether the nails are the right length just by looking at the heads. And you can't learn that from a book. Here's a real example you won't learn on any course but you might learn from experience. Look at the pic of the socket outlet. Seeing this should put you on increased alert for a specific potential problem with the wiring. What is it, and why is this particular socket a warning sign?
View attachment 93314
Click to expand...
It’s more an educated guess than a “ I know the answer”

the height of mounting alone suggests that it may well be in the rubber cable age range of installation
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Lucien Nunes said:
Yes crack on, the OP doesn't seem very interested in locating fire hazards, more in guessing and waffling:



And trolling, although it is an interesting discussion that's worth having and he does raise some relevant points.
Click to expand...
I think that's a little unfair, I think we all go through that phase of learning a bit , perhaps comparing oneself to the worst of those around us, and believing we know more than we do.

It is the time and experience after this where we develop the real knowledge, at the initial stage, one doesn't see or understand this.

After all, when you pass your driving test at 17, you're the best driver in the world, better than any F1, or police advanced driver...

BTW, unless it's the photo I would be more concerned about "direct contact" with the mk outlet (with the clamp terminals)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
A lot of I&T is guesswork, or at least educated guesswork and further proofing of theory’s.

For Lycian’s socket…visual inspection.
first thing you notice is age of accessory. Likely wiring is of same age, lighting circuits possibly don’t have cpc and still old rewritable fuses in board. Eg no rcd. Cable may be old stranded and starting to breakdown… or this is an old socket that’s someone’s fitted as an alteration using newer cable. Need to remove to check.

Looks like it’s mounted on a skirting board, so too low for plugging in anything without damaging the plug. A damaged plug could also mean a damaged socket. The springs in the socket loose, causing bad connection on plug pins.

If same appliance used in other sockets, they too may be damaged from bent pins on plug.

The screws look a little corroded. May just be age, but could be dampness…. In which case the dampness may be in the socket as well.

Physical damage from a rigorous vacuum cleaner….



That’s just visual. I’ve not taken my testers out the box yet.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
littlespark said:
A lot of I&T is guesswork, or at least educated guesswork and further proofing of theory’s.

For Lycian’s socket…visual inspection.
first thing you notice is age of accessory. Likely wiring is of same age, lighting circuits possibly don’t have cpc and still old rewritable fuses in board. Eg no rcd. Cable may be old stranded and starting to breakdown… or this is an old socket that’s someone’s fitted as an alteration using newer cable. Need to remove to check.

Looks like it’s mounted on a skirting board, so too low for plugging in anything without damaging the plug. A damaged plug could also mean a damaged socket. The springs in the socket loose, causing bad connection on plug pins.

If same appliance used in other sockets, they too may be damaged from bent pins on plug.

The screws look a little corroded. May just be age, but could be dampness…. In which case the dampness may be in the socket as well.

Physical damage from a rigorous vacuum cleaner….



That’s just visual. I’ve not taken my testers out the box yet.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it is the photo then, but to me it looks like the shutter is missing, or stuck open allowing direct contact, and being of the age where it has clamp terminals it may be that the wiring is aluminium which can be subject to cracking.

But yes a whole host of alarm bells .
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Correct, This particular model of socket has rising clamp terminals and was recommended for use with aluminium cable. In this case, the cable is copper, but if I found these I would want to satisfy myself that there was no hidden aluminium in the installation. If they were localised to one area e.g. an extension I would consider prioritising that as being at higher risk of defects than the rest of the installation, until proven to be entirely copper.

Old and manky = meh. Aluminium = possible burnouts.
Opinions = meh. Detailed technical knowledge & experience = quality, value-for-money I & T.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote

Reply to Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

J
UK Where to get green certificates
Yea that makes sense. Even tho I’m not registered with niceic yet as still need to do the extra training. I’m still signing the qs part?
Replies
6
Views
268
James Melville
J
K
Inspection&Test and EICR
That's a glass half full thought 🤔
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Simon47
S
D
UK Getting 'back' into the industry..
Thanks mate for the advice, this is just what I was looking for. I think I’ll have to put some thought into the domestic route due to the NVQ and...
    • Like
Replies
2
Views
242
David555
D
Spark196
Fluke 1662/1663 issues
Having some issues with my companys fluke 1662/1663 tester. Zeroing 2 leads for continuity test we get the value 0.08 which is expected. The issue...
Replies
0
Views
161
Spark196
Spark196
R
  • Question
Qualifications needed for self employed electricians
The intention/spirit, or whatever you want to call it, of the regulations is that EICRs would be conducted by a fully qualified person who has a...
Replies
19
Views
2K
davesparks
D

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

Tilers Community
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
NHS Forums | Forum for NHS Staff and NHS Patients
Back
Top
✖
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks